Welcome back to Count Me In,

the podcast that takes you inside the
impactful world of management accounting.

This is Adam Larson,

and today is a special edition of Count
Me In to Celebrate Global Ethics Day

2022.

And there's no better guess for such
an occasion than Kelly Richmond Pope,

IMA's Research Fellow for
Corporate Governance and Ethics,

professor of forensic
accounting at DePaul University,

award-winning filmmaker and the author
of the forthcoming book, Fool Me Once:

Scams Stories and Secrets from the
Trillion Dollar Fraud Industry.

Kelly and Neha discuss her latest IMA
report focus on how management accountants

are modernized in compliance
in the 21st century.

Plus we get a preview of her new
book and lots of other updates.

It's always interesting when Kelly stops
by. So let's start the conversation.

Welcome back to Count Me in. Kelly,

it's such a pleasure to
have you again on the show.

Thanks for having me back.

First of all, congratulations
on your new report,

Ethics in the 21st century
that came out recently.

Thank you.

Our listeners would love to know
what the report is all about.

The report is an overview of how to

not only update the compliance
function within your organization,

but utilizing managerial
accountants in those updates.

So that's really what the
gist of the report is,

and we focus on three recommendations
on how to update that.

Wow,

that sounds like a very helpful report
for management accountants and finance

and accounting professionals
around the world.

So I've went through the report and saw
that you call designing an Effective

Compliance program, both
an art and a science.

Can you help our listeners
understand what you mean by that?

Well, you know,

it's one of those jargon terms you use a
lot and it sounds good when you use it,

but now you've asked
me a question about it.

So let me tell you what I mean by that.

I think that the science
part is the fact that

a lot of programs or
organizations are siloed

into departments,

and so that's the scientific
understanding of how we believe

organizations should work. So
you have your legal department,

you have your accounting department,

You may have your internal audit
department, you may have operations,

and all of these departments are siloed.

And so I think that that's
the science of how we organize

companies.

But the art is how to utilize all
of those different departments

together and finding the strengths
of each of those groups and bringing

them together. So they're one
cohesive machine that works together,

is the art part of it.

And that takes some skill because we
don't think about an approach of everyone

working together. We think about a
very siloed approach of how we work,

and I think that when we
are trying to update our,

our compliance programs,

we really need to look at these
various silo departments and pull

from those so that we can
have this one cohesive team.

That is very insightful
and it might be a jargon,

but thanks for helping us
understand it better. Now of course,

most companies try to have some sort
of compliance program in place, right?

What do you think is the biggest inhibitor
when it comes to the effectiveness of

these compliance programs?

Well, I think there's two inhibitors.

One is compliance.

The word compliance
triggers people to think,

all I need to do is check the box and
just get this done. And the second is,

most people believe that they don't need
it. They believe that they're ethical.

They believe that they don't
need this type of reinforcement.

So you have these two forces that
you're battling. And quite honestly,

most organizations do have very
boring compliance training.

And some of it is routine,

but there is room for it to be
more engaging and more dynamic.

So I think the fact that we have
conditioned people to think about this as,

Oh goodness, here comes compliance
again. Just let me get this done.

And so we have a level set,

a level shift that we need to
make within our employee base to

even get them excited about
what we have around compliance.

So you're fighting an uphill
battle from the beginning.

And so how, what,

what can we infuse into
compliance to really change

that to get more people on
board, is the big question.

That's so true. Every time I've
had conversations in companies,

people think compliance training
is going to be a snooze fest.

So thanks for bringing that up.

And can you help us understand how can
companies avoid that kind of mentality

or perception about compliance training?

Well, I think when compliance,

there are some routine things
about compliance, and that is true,

but I think where you have the
opportunity to be creative, you should be.

And so my passion area,

my research area is around
fraud and forensic accounting.

And I think that there are
areas within the compliance

training realm that can lend itself
to more creative and more engaging

types of approaches. And we tend to
not do those. If we do that more,

I think that we can change the
attitude around compliance and make

people more excited about it.

Absolutely. Love that, Kelly.

Let me pivot from that and ask you another
question about whistle blowing. Now,

how can companies incentivize
internal reporting?

So employees feel empowered to speak
up when they see any misconduct?

You know, whistle blowing is an
interesting topic because again,

you have this same uphill
battle that you're fighting.

And a couple years back,

I did a TED Talk entitled how
whistleblowers shape history.

And one of my motivations
around doing the talk,

because the whole idea around TED is
do you have an idea worth sharing?

And so my motivation around
doing the talk was because

whistleblowers are so valuable
to organizations and to society,

but how can we encourage more people
to come forward when it has such a

negative stigma?

So I think one of the things that we
need to do within our organizations is

first remove the stigma and
almost celebrate it. And it's,

it's hard because despite the benefits
that whistle blowers offer us,

we tend to not trust them
when they come forward.

We tend to be skeptical of them,
and we then tend to shun them.

And so if that's the, if that's the
negative connotation around the action,

no one's gonna do it. So if an
organization can switch that thinking,

and maybe they have an
e-newsletter where they're sharing

monthly, quarterly, annually,

the wins and the value
that internal reporters,

maybe we even call 'em a different name,

but what they've offered
to an organization,

maybe that is one way that
we can encourage people to

come forward prizes, whether
they're monetary or non monetary,

in other words, incentivizing people
for their actions always will,

will warrant a different type of behavior.

So I think that we have to
embrace a new attitude around the

types of actions that we want our
our employees to, to display for us.

And that sure is an idea worth sharing.
Thanks for sharing that, Kelly.

I was thinking about some,

some of the things that I read in
the report and I came across the term

values-based compliance programs. Can
you help me understand what that means?

Well, I think the, just
using the exact terms,

I think that what we have to do,

and this is really how we get more buy
in from people, from our employees,

is we link our training to the values
and the missions of our organization.

And I think that's one of the
ways that you can get more people

championing this kind of work.

I think that one of the problems
is employees and I, you know,

I'm an employee too,

we often see a huge disconnect
between what we're being asked to do

and the mission of the organization.

So if we can have more of a value based
approach to compliance so we can show

people the why even more as to why this
is important and why we have to do it,

I think again, you'll have
more engagement, more buy-in,

and hopefully even more retention.

So true about the why, right?
It brings all of it together.

And you also talk about other things
like gamification and storytelling

in compliance training.

That sounds really fascinating for a
talent development professional like me.

Can you tell us how that can be done?

Absolutely. I mean, just think
about what if I said this to you,

I wanna tell you a story about
you automatically get excited

because you know that I'm about to
take you on a journey versus if I

say, I'm gonna tell you the
rules of driving, you're
going to automatically say,

oh goodness,

she's about to go through some procedures
and policies with me and it's gonna

bore me out of my mind. So
I think that when we use

stories as our foundation,
we engage people,

The science around storytelling shows
us that we see ourselves in the story

that we're listening to,

and that's why we have more
connection to what we're listening to.

So I think that when it lends itself
appropriate, we should use scenarios,

we should use stories, we should
use cases when it's appropriate.

The problem is, I think a
lot of times with compliance,

we end up just focusing on the rules
and the procedures and we lose the human

connection.

And I think what storytelling does
is it brings back the human side

of what we're trying to convey. You know,

I just finished writing a book
and it's a book about fraud.

It's called Fool Me Once.

And one of the things that I really
focus on in the book is the human

side of fraud. Not just the scheme,

but there is often a reason why a
person ends up where they're ending

up. And so I like to bring the,

the human side back to anything, any
type of content that I'm training around.

And I think with compliance training,
there are great stories. I mean,

just think about why,

just talk about the rule when
you can use a story that almost

exemplifies a person that broke that
rule. Not only is it more interesting,

you are talking about the why it's
important within your company,

and then you're linking
it back to the mission of,

hopefully you're linking it back to
the mission of your organization.

So it's, it's a win,
win, win for everyone.

When I think you can ground
your training into a story.

That's very fascinating, Kelly, you,

you write about the human side and
when emotions get involved in learning,

people do remember their,
their stuff so much better.

The learning is so much
more sticky for them.

And you mentioned your book Fool Me Once,

would you like to tell us more about it?

Sure. I can talk all day about that.

So Fool Me Once is the
full title is Fool Me Once:

Stories and Lessons Inside the
Trillion Dollar Fraud Industry.

And it's being published,
it'll come out March,

2023 but you can preorder it now,

but it's being published by
Harvard Business Review Press.

And one of the things that I talk
about in the book is I use the journey

of doing my documentary all the queens
horses as really the through story

throughout the book. So what
I'm talking about is what I do,

I use a story to really pull everyone in,

everyone that I want to read it.

And so as I was doing the book and as
I've been interviewing white collar

felons and whistle blowers throughout
my career and victims of fraud,

what I've noticed is why
that I've had these different

emotions around whistleblowers,

victims of fraud and and perpetrators.

And so understanding their why is,

is something that the book is all about.

And so what I did is I came up
with this fraud archetype of

whistleblowers, perpetrators and prey.

So I'll call 'em perps,
prey, and whistle blowers.

And so I argue that there are
different types of perpetrators.

There's intentional perpetrators,
there are accidental perpetrators,

and then there are righteous perpetrators.

And that righteous perpetrator category
might be a little controversial for a

lot of people, but some people do
things to truly help other people.

That is true.

And so my premise is that all
perpetrators are not the same.

And same with prey. Sometimes
you can have two categories here,

innocent bystanders and
organizational targets.

And so organizational targets deals
with the company and innocent bystanders

deals with the personal aspect
of when people are preyed upon.

And then with whistleblowers,

you still have these different
categories of whistleblowers.

You can be an accidental whistleblower,
you can be a noble whistleblower,

and you can be a vigilante whistleblower.

And a lot of times when we think about
snitches, rats, tattle tails, traitors,

they're that vigilante
whistleblower category.

But we have these other categories too.

So I break that down in the book to help
people understand that you have these

different emotions because some
people get involved in a fraud scheme

for varying reasons. It's not all
the same, it's not all cookie cutter.

And so I use my documentary
experience as the through

story because my documentary is about the
largest municipal fraud in US history.

And so I talk about my
experiences filming that.

And so the perpetrator in that story
was an intentional perpetrator,

and her crime was discovered
by an accidental whistleblower.

And the, the victims of her
crime were innocent bystanders.

They were residents of a
town called Dixon, Illinois.

So I used my theory that I came up
with to really help understand just the

different descriptors
that I offer in the book.

It is a fascinating
story. By the way, Kelly,

I've watched it and I invite all the
listeners here today to go check out All

the Queen's Horses too. And I, for myself,

cannot wait to get my hands on your
book. It sounds like a page turner to me.

Now this is my last question for the day.

Our listeners who are mostly finance
and accounting professionals,

they're always looking to continue
learning. Now, apart from you,

are there any other experts in the field
who our listeners can read and also

follow on social media to get the
latest and greatest in the field of

compliance?

Absolutely. And in the report,
we have two thought leaders.

We have two sidebar interviews with two
thought leaders that I highly recommend.

Thomas Fox,

who is one of the well known compliance
leaders and Richard Bistrong.

And so they're different because
Richard and I'm not gonna spoil

the stories you go after
go read the report.

But Richard has both have experience
with compliance and fraud,

but in different ways.

And so those are two thought leaders
that are both on LinkedIn and on Twitter.

And I would highly recommend following
them and reading their writings

because I've learned a lot from those
two compliance thought leaders through my

experiences.

Fantastic. Thank you for
those recommendations.

And that brings us to the
end of our episode today.

Thank you so much for a wonderful chat
and sharing your insights with us today.

Kelly.

You are so welcome and I look
forward to coming back again.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard and you'd
like to be counted in for more relevant

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education, visit IMA's website at

www.imanet.org.