< Intro >

- So in this special podcast,
Celebrating 50 Years of the CMA,

or the Certified Management
Accountant program.

Margaret Michaels, myself,
IMA's Brand Content

and Storytelling Manager,
will be talking with two CMAs.

One who earned his CMA in 1975,

soon after the CMA program
had just begun.

And another who earned her CMA,
quite recently, in April of 2022.

John Macaulay is a former IMA chair,

who was among the first
CMA program completers.

He held a number of distinguished
roles in the industry.

Including serving as CFO
of the telecom company,

Royal Street Communications.

Colleen Lucero is a Manager
of Client Analytics at Graebel,

a relocation services company.

Colleen earned her CMA in April of 2022.

I am so pleased we could chat, today,
with both John and Colleen

about their CMA experiences
and career journeys.

< Music >

So, John, I'll start with you.

I noticed in your bio that you did not
study accounting as undergraduate major.

Rather you pursued
a biology and chemistry degree.

What made you decide
to shift into accounting?

And how did you hear
about the CMA program?

- Thank you, Margaret.

It's good to be here, today,
and chat with everyone.

That's a rather complicated story,

but I will try to shorten it up as best I can.

I graduated from college in 1965,

with a degree in biology and chemistry.

I was studying pre-med.

I had pretty much decided,
by the end of my junior year,

that I probably didn't want to spend
another six years in school.

And, so, I decided I wasn't going
to medical school.

1965 was the middle of Vietnam.

And, so, I signed up for
Navy Officer Candidate School,

and I went and became a Navy officer,

a guided-missile officer
on a couple of different destroyers.

And it was a great experience
and exposure, for me,

to not only international travel
and different cultures,

but also to leadership and the military.

When I got out of the military,

I knew I wanted to go to 
graduate school and get an MBA.

I hadn't settled on accounting
at that point, clearly,

but I knew I was headed
in the direction of business.

I had worked at a bank, in Cambridge,

and I actually became
the head of personnel.

I was there for only a year and a half,
actually, and after about six months,

I became the head of personnel,

we had 650 employees and 12 branches.

So it was a rather challenging decision
to go back to graduate school.

But I was accepted by Northwestern,
the Kellogg School,

and we moved from Boston,

by that time I was married,
from Boston to Chicago

and spent two years
at Kellogg getting an MBA.

And there I specialized
in accounting and finance,

actually, Accounting
and Information Systems. 

The second year, I became the assistant

to the chair of the Accounting
and Information Systems Department.

And did some tutoring and wrote
a couple of cases for him.

From there, I went to work
for General Mills

in Minneapolis, and this was 1972.

I started working in May
and in about September,

my boss, two levels up,
whose name was Jerry Ford,

came around and said, "John, would you
be interested in taking the CMA?"

Well, I had actually refused, at Kellogg,
to take the CPA exam,

and I'd interviewed with some of the big,

I guess it was the Big Six, at that point,
it may have been the Big Eight still.

And I told them I was willing
to go into consulting,

but I didn't want to be an auditor.

I had no interest in the CPA.

And, so, they didn't accept me,

but I had plenty of opportunities.

And, so, I said to Jerry,
"Sure I would, I'd absolutely love it."

But I said I wanted a certification
and I didn't want to be a CPA.

I wanted to be a management
accountant in business. 

So Jerry said, "Well, this organization,

called NAA, is going to have this exam."

And Susan's grandfather
was actually a member of NAA,

and had been the president
of the Boston Chapter many years ago.

And I said, "Well, that's perfect."

And, so, we began to try
to get ready for this exam,

which we knew nothing about.

And we held one or two, "Study sessions"

in our headquarters, in Minneapolis.

But we didn't have any real success
because it was just a reading list.

Some of the books
I'd had in graduate school.

So, anyway, we went, it was
a two-and-a-half-day exam

at the University of Minnesota.

And I listened to part of
the previous podcast

and Denny Beresford talked about
the ice storm in Pittsburgh.

Well, the second day
we had a blizzard in Minneapolis,

we actually lost the power.

It was in the library
at the University of Minnesota.

We actually lost the power,
but there were plenty of windows.

So we had a lot of light,

and we just continued writing the exam,

so it wasn't really an issue.

I was fortunate, I did pass
all five parts of the first exam.

So I say I got it in 1972,

but IMA decided I didn't have,
"Enough management experience"

at that point, and, so, they wouldn't
give me the certificate.

So I actually got my certificate later

in the second batch of certificates.

But that's fine, I didn't have a problem

because I actually wrote them a letter

and said, "Well, I think I have
the experience and this and that."

And next thing I knew they wanted me

to be on an exam review committee.

And, so, that's actually how I got involved

with leadership in IMA,

which I'll talk about a little bit later.

- That's a great story.

It seems everyone,
in the first class of CMA takers,

had unfavorable weather conditions.

To add to the challenge in taking
the test for the first time.

And Colleen, like John,

your undergraduate degree
is not in accounting,

but in Spanish Language and Literature.

So what prompted you to embark
on an accounting career?

And how did you hear
about the CMA program?

- Yes, so I got my undergrad in Spanish

and I thought I was going to do 
interpreting and translating.

So after I graduated from my undergrad,

I started down that road

and then realized that it ended up

not being quite the fit

that I was hoping it was going to be.

But I was getting other certifications

for interpreting and translating
for large conferences,

and even in the courts,
and some medical stuff.

And while I'm doing all this,
on the side I got this,

what I thought was a transitory
side job with a small business.

And I ended up realizing,
"Oh, my goodness, I actually

love what I'm doing
for this small business."

With a small business, you put on
all kinds of different hats.

So I was supposed to be just
the office manager.

But I ended up working with their CPA
and doing payroll,

and invoicing, and working
with their books.

And helping them make
little decisions here and there,

and working with their clients.

And I started realizing,
"Oh, my goodness, accounting

is really just the language of business."

And I've always loved languages,
and cultures, and the arts,

and I never saw myself as an accountant.

I was like, "Black and white forms
and tax filing."

And that's what I had in my head.

And it's funny my mom had 
actually encouraged me, early on,

to go after accounting

and I was like, "That's crazy, no way,
I just cannot fathom it."

I took an intro to accounting class

and I did well in my undergrad,

but it just wasn't my thing.

And it wasn't until I worked
with that small business,

that things came to life for me.

And once that happened,

I realized, "I think this is, actually,
what I would love to do."

And, so, I ended up going back to school

to get my Master's in Accounting.

But I was really frustrated

because when I started working
on my Master's in Accounting,

the real big push was for tax and audit,
all the time.

And I'm like, "But this is not
what I really want to do

and this is not what I was doing."

And I actually worked
at the university full-time

while I was getting my degree.

So, meanwhile, I was actually
doing management accounting

for the departments and the divisions
that I worked with,

doing financial planning and analysis.

And I was working
on their senior staff team

and working with their strategic
planning piece of things,

and their operations,
and finance decisions.

And, so, I'm like, "I know that this is not
all that there is."

Even though there was this big push.

So I was frustrated feeling like there was
this middle ground,

somewhere, that I just couldn't find.

And then I took my cost accounting class

and my professor promoted the CMA,

and had someone come in
and do a presentation for us.

And I was like, "Oh, my goodness, finally,

this is what I knew I was seeing."

But just hadn't had someone
say like, "This is an opportunity here."

So that's when I decided I really wanted

to get my CMA designation.

And at that point, by the time I graduated

with my Master's in Accounting,

I had had about eight years of experience.

So I ended up getting
my experience piece done first

and then taking the exam afterwards.

Which I felt was really great
because the CMA exam

ended up just filling in some gaps.

Where I felt, almost, like
my accounting degree was really strong.

But it left some gaps with some
of the management side,

that I was really working with
on a daily basis.

So I felt like it just fused things together.

So I went from this creative arts person,

which I feel like I loved
all the creative arts,

never thought I'd be this numbers person.

But I'm like, "This is all storytelling,
and dealing with people, 

and helping craft their
direction and stories."

So that's how I heard about the CMA

within my cost accounting class.

And I'm super excited
to be working with it

and having just finished it.

- That's great, and I love how you said,

"Accounting is the language of business."

And, so, as a language person 
it makes perfect sense for you

to pursue a career
in management accounting.

And you're not alone
in understanding that

these management accounting functions

are happening all the time,

but what are the words to describe it?

What is the profession?

And it's like discovering a well-hidden secret, and we hear that a lot.

But it's great that you found your passion

and that it's aligned with your language skills and your creativity.

And shifting to another topic;
technology is increasingly,

I think, a language
in and of itself, too, now

in accounting and finance.

And at IMA, we offer so many
continuing education courses

on technology because of that very fact.

And, so, John, you worked
in finance for over two decades.

So I know you have seen the 
evolution of technology up close.

How did the CMA help you 
navigate changes in technology?

And can you think of one technology
that you considered revolutionary,

in terms of how finance and accounting
functions were performed? 

- Yes, and you're being very generous
when you say two decades,

it's at least four and maybe five,
but that's all right.

Anyway, in any case, yes, 
technology continually changes

and as an accountant
or a business person, period,

you have to stay up to date, obviously,
on the changes as they occur.

One of the things that really interested me
in graduate school, particularly,

was information flow
and how information flowed.

And it was very interesting

that in the Kellogg School, at that time,

they had the combination of accounting
and information systems

in the same department,

and a lot of it was
simply information flow.

But of course in the early, "early days"

information technology was the purview
of the accounting department

and the controller's department

because it mostly was
all numbers related.

It's since expanded to the 
whole organization, obviously.

But going back to just, strictly,
the information flows.

I was very interested in how information

flowed in an organization

and also the particular information
that was focused on in an organization.

And how that affected the actions
that the organization took,

and the plans that the organization made.

And sometimes these were numbers,

but they were also words, 
in many cases, a while ago.

And until technology really 
got developed and the numbers,

and the analytics around
the numbers developed

it was primarily just information flows.

So the biggest example
I could think of technology flows,

and this goes way back.

Most of the people listening to this

may not have a clue
what I'm talking about.

But back in graduate school 
some other fellows and I

created, as one of our projects, a program

that generated an income statement

and a balance sheet for a company.

And in programming the device
we had, for inputs, was punch cards.

So we had a thousand plus 
punch cards in this deck.

It was a large deck
we carried around with us,

and heaven forbid that we ever dropped it.

Because even though they had numbers,

trying to get them back
together was a mess.

So we thank goodness it never happened.

But that was the storage
or the input device,

for sure, back then.

And that has evolved
so much over the years.

I mean, the storage today is amazing

and you can get instant recall
out of the storage.

And, similarly, with inputs,

the inputs have become so flexible,

and you can input almost anything
into a computer

and do some analysis or work with it.

So that's how I've seen technology really evolve over the period I've been working.

- I've definitely seen movies with big computers and punch cards.

So I do know what you're talking about,

like NASA had to use it.

But it is amazing how 
technology has gotten smaller,

more compact and efficient,

and you don't need a room
full of computers

and millions of punch cards.

I think people forget that
that is the beginning

of the technology that we're using today.

It's those fundamentals
that went into building

everything that we use.

So that's amazing that you've got to
see this whole evolution.

And Colleen, like John, your role

is one that depends upon
acumen and technology,

and a deep understanding of data.

How did the CMA help prepare you

for the challenges and opportunities

associated with technology in your role?

- Yes, so I had been working with
the technology side of things

during my work experience primarily.

So I feel like I got a lot 
of the base understanding

just from having to walk through it

and get the experience of working

through the programs or softwares.

And trying to figure out
how to extract data

and pull it from our database,

and figure out how to put it together

the way we needed to.

To try to make a decision
and pull new pieces in

and see how that would affect things.

And I feel like I got a lot of that
through my work experience,

but there were still some gaps missing.

Because I felt like I learned 
it on the fly all the time,

and I wasn't like I took a 
class in my master's degree

that helped me connect
those dots, necessarily.

There was some technology

and information systems
classes that I took.

But it wasn't necessarily
on business decision making

and some of the areas that
I was really working in.  

So it wasn't connecting the dots.

It was isolated pieces
that I was learning

and I needed something to
help pull everything together.

Which I had been doing in my work experience, instinctually.

But the CMA, I felt like helped bring

a lot more confidence to 
that and tie it together.  

I'm like, "Oh, I knew I was
seeing it that way."

And it made me feel
a little more confident

on the things I was doing right.

And then helped highlight
some of my weaker spots

and strengthen those areas too.

- Absolutely, and we hear that a lot too,

to learn the technology in isolation

it can be really difficult to understand
how it should be applied.

And one thing we always say, too,

and Jeff has echoed this
in some of his remarks,

is "The technology is only as good

as the people behind it."

If the people behind it

don't know how to draw the connections,

or do the analysis, apply
the critical thinking skills,

the technology is worthless.

So I think both you and John
have made that point very well.

And, so, speaking of how technology

has changed accounting and finance.

A fun fact about the CMA exam
is that in 1972,

when John sat for it,

it was administered by paper and pencil.

And, John, what do you see
as the advantages

of electronic test-taking today,

as compared to how
you had to take the exam?

- Yes, I haven't taken many 
real exams electronically,

but I have filled out surveys
and a variety of things.

But the real key, I think,
is a couple of things;

flexibility and that is the ability

to be able to take it almost 
anywhere in the world.

We have test centers all
over the world right now,

and that's a great benefit to test takers.

They can take it at a variety of times.

We don't have to have a proctor come in

because they're at a test center,
in most cases.

And then the ease of grading,
of course, electronic grading

is so much quicker than somebody

trying to do it by hand,
with hundreds of papers.

So those are two benefits of it,

I'm sure there are others.

Obviously, we can
change questions easily.

We can make the exam random,

very easy, in a lot of varieties.

I was on the Board of Regents
for six or eight years,

so I have worked with the exam
extensively in that regard.

The other big benefit we've actually

had is during Covid, obviously,

this electronic testing made it
much more possible

than, if you think back, if 
it had to be in-person paper

and pencil exam, at test centers,
where we had to have proctors,

it would've just shut
the whole thing down.

As it was in most cases,

IMA was able to continue giving the exam

in a variety of these test locations.

In areas where individuals 
could get to the test centers

and that benefited the individuals greatly,

and, obviously, also benefited IMA.

So changing it to an electronic format

was a great decision and a 
good benefit for everyone.

- I agree, and, Colleen, having studied

and prepared for the CMA

which is a rigorous process
in and of itself.

Can you tell us a little bit
about your strategy,

for preparing for the exam?

- Yes, I'd say I did a few things
that I think were really key for me.

One, I set a really structured schedule

and just stuck with it.

I have a little one
who is now almost three,

but at the time she was just
a little under one

when I started studying.

So the schedule was really crazy,

working full-time with a little one.

And I had just finished
my master's degree 

and, so, I had a lot of 
things that I was juggling.

And I knew that if I didn't
set a strict schedule,

I wasn't going to be able to really finish.

And it's a really big endeavor,

so I was like, "I got to keep to it."

So my plan was, I'm very much
a morning person.

So I got up really early in the morning

before she woke up and studied
for a good couple of hours

before my day even
went going, got started.

And I just stuck to that and tried to review

throughout the day with flashcards.

And I also hired a tutor because,
for me, I love study groups

and I couldn't really find 
a study group to work with.

So I ended up hiring a tutor to work with

and that helped me feel
a little more connected,

and stay motivated
throughout the process.

Just because it was about
three solid months

that I just hit it really hard.

So it felt like a sprint
but in a marathon form.

So I knew I was going to need someone

to help keep me motivated.

So having that extra connection 
was really helpful.

And I also chose to tackle
the first exam first,

since it was more accounting oriented

and that was my strong suit.

And the second exam
was more finance-oriented,

so I knew I was going to need
a little bit more work with that.

So I wanted to tackle what I thought

was going to be a little bit more,

I could tackle it a little bit more easily
or more quickly, I felt like.

So, yes, those were some
of my strategies.

I just stuck to a schedule,

I tried to get other people involved

and when I couldn't get
a whole study group going,

I got a tutor, and I got my family involved.

I made flashcards specifically

so that they could quiz me and drill me.

If they wanted to spend time 
with me, I'm like, "Quiz me."

Start drilling me on concepts and things.

But, yes, those are some
of the things that I used

to help keep me motivated,
keep me moving,

and actually get through the exams.

- I like that.

It's, kind of, it takes a village approach
to passing the CMA.

But you're right, having all of those people

around you, supporting you,

and keeping you sharp is a great idea.

- I feel like they also felt like
they went through the exam too.

So everybody was relieved 
once we had all finished.

Because we all had to get together

to help Colleen finish this.

So that was also really fun too,

and it was really great.

They've always been
such a good support.

So I needed that in order
to keep motivated as well,

they were a big element of that.

- Right, and now your toddler knows
cost accounting principles now.

So one of the things,
and maybe our listeners

are unfamiliar with the fact that

to maintain the CMA certification.

Every CMA needs to undergo

some continuing education courses

every year to stay fresh,
current, and relevant.

So, John, I'm curious,
what was the most valuable,

continuing education course
you took at IMA?

- As you just indicated, Margaret, 
because you have to stay current,

you take a lot of continuing education.

And I think the ethics courses

were the ones that
I found most interesting

because they seem to be
the most challenging.

In terms of some of the questions
that got asked,

some of the things that you didn't

always think about on a daily basis.

Obviously, as new topics
came into the field,

it was always interesting 
to take a course in that.

Because then you could get

the latest information on a new topic.

Also, I found the conferences to be very valuable because you got a variety

of subjects over a two or three-day period.

That would be of interest to you

and you could focus on a specific track,

and get a focus in that area,

which was always interesting.

The other part of what isn't exactly
continuing education,

but that I feel is key benefit of IMA

is the leadership it can give you

at the various organization levels.

And within IMA, as I indicated earlier,

I'd gotten involved with the CMA exam
as an exam review.

I was looking at questions early on,

and that led to involvement with actually
the international organization.

And then I relocated to Dallas
and when we relocated here,

I decided I needed to get more 
involved with the chapter.

So I got involved with the chapter

and became the chapter president.

Then I went on to the Texas Council

and became the Council president,

and I was on the board.

But I'd been on the board earlier too.

But in any case I, ultimately,

became chair of the organization,

and all of those different levels were

learning levels of different things.

And I often tell younger folks

that, "Get involved with
your local chapters,

it's a no risk deal."

If you are assigned
to set up a dinner meeting

and you mess it up.

Well, you learn something

and you won't mess up the next one.

And it's a good way, and it 
didn't cost you anything.

If you did that in business
it might cost you something,

in your status in that business,

in your promotion ability, and so forth.

But in IMA it doesn't really hurt you

and, so, it's strictly a volunteer thing.

So take advantage of those opportunities,

it can be an important learning

and growth experiences for people.

- Yes, absolutely,
and for younger people, too,

they get that leadership experience

before they might be able
to get it at the workplace.

So that's another really strong 
benefit of chapters and councils.

And, Colleen, I'm not sure if you've taken

continuing education at IMA

or if you've attended a conference?

But can you speak a little bit about,

maybe, a topic of interest,

that you learned more
about through IMA?

- Yes, and I have taken some CBE classes,

and I did the women's conference,

was it a couple of years ago at this point?

It was all virtual,
and I was supposed to go

to the one in New York City

when they were going to have that.

But that was around the time
Covid happened

and ended up not working out.

And I was really happy
when I got to participate

in the following year
and they did it virtually,

that was really cool.

I feel like there's a lot, I agree with John,

I really enjoyed the variety of topics

being offered at the conference

and being able to glean a lot
from a lot of different areas

in a short amount of time.

That was really helpful,
I really valued that experience.

And also think one of the CP classes

that I've taken, that have stood out to me,

has been a couple on data analytics

with storytelling in particular.

Because I feel like that's just really critical

to a lot of the work that I've done.

It's a continual march of financial data
and operations data.

And what does this mean?
And what do we do from here?

And how do we make our next step,
so to speak

And, so, that storytelling 
aspect is really important.

So I think those are the ones

that have jumped out to me
the most, at the moment.

- Yes, the storytelling with data,

I did a test for the pilot

and I loved that course more than others

because I'm biased, my title is storyteller.

And, of course, Colleen,

you had that creative side, too.

So it's a nice combination
when you can merge

the creative with the 
accounting and finance skills.

- And I always feel like 
people think of accountants

as isolated, in the back office somewhere,

doing behind-the-scenes work

almost like a human calculator.

And I think that was the image

that had pushed me off for so long.

Until I realized I'm working 
with people all the time,

and communicating all the time,

and having to interpret all the time

from actually what I'm seeing in reports,

and on the data side,
and the financial side of things.

And then I'm having to work
with the operations team

to see what's going on their front.

To see if what I'm seeing makes sense

and together, the storytelling

is not something that I do alone,

it happens as a team.

We all have to contribute to
really seeing what's going on

so we can fashion that story.

So working with people all the time

and I just love that creative
and collaborative process.

- I agree, so I'm going to 
shift to the last topic.

And I saved it for last because
I think it's a really big topic

that affects the long term
of the profession,

and the business world,
and the world in general,

and that is sustainability.

Which is receiving a lot of attention

in accounting and finance circles.

Because it's challenging accounting
and finance departments

to collect and analyze data
that is non-financial.

ESG data; Environmental, Social
and Governance type of data.

And, Colleen, sitting in a role 

where data drives everything you do.

How well prepared do you feel you are

to account for non-financial or ESG data?

Did the CMA prepare you

for embarking on this emerging area?

- Yes, I think so.

Again, going back to where I feel like
I was learning a lot

of these skills on the job but on the fly.

And I feel like the CMA came

and helped fill in the gaps,

and strengthened some weak points

that I might have had.

And I feel like the non-financial
piece of things

was one of those weak points.

In my accounting classes
that was always the focus.

And you don't, necessarily, 
get into the other side

and how it affects
the finances necessarily.

You do maybe a little bit here and there,

but it's not so focused on 
the strategy piece of things.

Especially when they're pushing audit

and accounting so strongly.

A lot of it is having to do
with larger companies,

who are dealing with external reporting decisions, those kinds of things.

But we're not talking about internal
business decisions very often.

And, so, I felt like studying 
the CMA really helped

fill in the gaps for some of that as well.

And, so, I do feel like the 
CMA prepared me to collect

and be able to interpret
non-financial data.

And understand that it has,
I guess, derive meaning

from that non-financial data.

And try to really figure out
how it's being impacted?

Where it's coming from?

How it's being impacted by other things

in the organization and not 
just see it in isolation.

- Yes, absolutely, and, John, having seen

the positive and negative impacts

business can have on society,
over long periods of time.

What are your thoughts on the emergence

of sustainability reporting,

and how can enrolling
in the CMA program

help accounting
and finance professionals

enter this new and evolving space?

- This is very interesting,

when you talk about the emergence 
of sustainable reporting,

because it goes back to something
I mentioned earlier,

which is the information flow.

This is another information flow
within the organization.

And it's an important 
information flow, in my mind,

because, obviously, business does

have a big impact on sustainability,

over the long term, of our environment,

and just the sustainability 
of business in general.

And, obviously, there are good
and bad elements.

I think the key here
is to try to pick measures

that are appropriate for what 
you're trying to measure,

and then be able to accurately 
measure those things.

I think too many times, as accountants,

we try to be very accurate

and sometimes we try to be too accurate,

but we can't be not
accurate enough either.

We can't just have
a best estimate out there.

It might be a place to start 
but maybe not promote that

as being the actual measurement.

So I think the key is
to get accurate measures

and be on top of it.

The other thought I had
was one of the things, I think,

the CMA program does,
and Colleen referred to this, 

was keep you up to date
on what's happening.

And not only does IMA offer courses,

obviously, in environmental reporting,
and sustainable reporting,

but the CMA exam also 
incorporates things about it.

So it causes you to study,
and just the idea of studying

for the exam is extremely
beneficial, I think, for people.

And Colleen referred to that as well

in her earlier comments.

So it's a way to stay up to date 
on some of the latest trends,

and what's happening in accounting.

< Outro >

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