Join us in this bonus episode of Count
Me In, where IMA brand storyteller,

Margaret Michaels sits down with two
noteworthy CMAs to discuss the 50th

anniversary of IMA's globally respected
certification for accounting and finance

professionals.

In this special Count Me In podcast,

celebrating the 50th anniversary of
the Certified Management Accountant or

CMA program,

I will be speaking with
two CMA exam takers,

Denny Beresford,

who earned his CMA in
1972 and made IMA history

by becoming one of IMA's
first CMAs, and Tori Heavey,

a recent graduate of the University
of Tennessee at Knoxville,

who won the CMA student award for
the highest score on the exam in the

June/July, 2020 testing window.

Tori also recently won the
Elijah Sales Award for her CPA

score. Denny has spent a lifetime
working in accounting and finance.

He currently serves as a member of
IMA's Financial Reporting Committee

and as the executive in residence
at the JM Toll School of

Accounting, Terry College of
Business at University of Georgia.

Tori is a recent graduate of the
Master's in Accountancy program at the

University of Tennessee Knoxville,

and is currently working as
a tax associate for KPMG.

Thank you Denny and Tori
for joining me today.

As we talk about your
experience taking the CMA exam.

Denny,

you have the distinction of being among
the first people to sit for the CMA exam

in 1972. At that time,

the CMA exam was administered with paper
and pencil and the field of management

accounting was not widely known.

What do you remember
about taking the CMA exam?

How did you learn about
management accounting?

Was it through school or work experience
and what are some of your study

methods and tips?

I had been a member of IMA, it

was actually the National Association
of Accountants or in earlier years

since 1962,

shortly after I graduated
from college. And in fact,

I'd been active in my local
chapter back in Los Angeles,

rising from

a helper on some of the committees
to become president of the chapter

shortly before I transferred
from Ernst & Ernst's

office in Los Angeles to the
national office in Cleveland

in 1971.

So I was very familiar
with what was going on at,

at the organization and the fact that the

CMA exam was being developed over
a couple of years before that.

And I guess I was generally familiar
with the management accounting

profession, having again
been participating in IMA

for a number of years being
involved particularly at the local

chapter level and then
also at the national level.

And also having been an
auditor and interacting,

of course with many of my
clients for that period of time.

And when the exam was was first offered,

I decided that it would be
a good thing, first of all,

to support the organization
for by taking it.

And I thought it would be something
that would help build my self

confidence, you might say, in
dealing with, with clients.

Since I was a public accountant,

I knew that I had to be able
to speak intelligently to

controllers and chief financial officers
and others who were involved in the

management accounting profession.

And so I thought that being
able to pass an exacting exam

like the CMA would again,

give me both self confidence and also
a positive credential that would show

that I was on similar footing to them.

What I remember about
taking the first exam,

I was in Cleveland in the National Office
of Ernst & Ernst, and at that point,

and I don't remember how many
different settings there were,

but the closest location that I could,

where I could take the
exam was Pittsburgh.

So I had to I go there,
drive over to Pittsburgh,

which isn't too far from
Cleveland. I had to stay overnight.

And the morning of the exam, there
was an ice storm in Pittsburgh.

And another fellow and I were both
gonna take the exam together and we

had to drive from the hotel to the,

I don't remember exactly
the place it was being held,

but it was a half hour or so away,

and we could barely make it there
because of the streets were all icy

and it was just a terrible
weather situation.

But and it was in a cavernous location,
some sort of a very large convention

location, something like that.
And it was large and very cold.

And again I had no idea how to

prepare for the exam because back then
there hadn't been any previous exams,

had nothing to to go on in terms
of looking at what questions

had been asked in the past.
And for the first exam,

what the organization
had done was give a list

of books that you could
consider studying to

prepare you for the exam.

I thought that was kind of a good idea,

but not a very good use of my time.

I knew that a couple of
the parts of the exam,

particularly Generally Accepted
Accounting Principles and some other

parts were pretty much in my wheelhouse
and I could do well on those.

The other parts I wasn't so sure about,

but I felt that trying to study them
by going back and reading textbooks

or the like, would not be a very
good use of my time. So my strategy,

if you will,

was to try to do well on one or two of the

parts,

and then of the other parts that if I
didn't do so well the next time when I had

to take them over, I'd at
least know what to study for.

And as it turned out,

I passed the whole exam the first time
and had one of the 10 highest scores.

So that strategy worked out pretty well
and it didn't have to go back and study,

but that's as much as I
remember about preparing for the

exam, why I took it and exactly
what happened when I was there.

That's great. That's a great
story about the ice storm.

You really persevered
taking the CMA exam a very

rigorous enterprise indeed. Tori,

now that you've heard Denny's experience,

how do you think the way you've taken
the exam is different from Denny and

what did you do to prepare for the exam?

Yeah, my experience
was a little different.

I did not have an ice storm to deal with,

but I've kind of grown up
through the shift to digital.

I rarely ever used computers for
school until I came to college, really.

Freshman year, most of my exams
were still on paper and pencil.

And gradually more and more classes
switched to exams on the computer.

And this transition really helped
me prepare to take the CMA exam

electronically, specifically
for the essay portion.

It helped that I'd improved my typing
skills tremendously over the time

or the few years I'd started using
computers more and got more used to typing

papers online or even just
using different software.

I used the Wiley CMA exam
question bank to prepare and study

for both parts of the CMA exam.

And it was totally computer based.

All of my prep except for my own notes
that I still write on paper and pencil.

But seeing the exam simulated during
my studying in this way definitely

helped a lot.

It familiarized me with the test
software and it made actual exam

day a lot less daunting
just to have kind of more

familiarity in being used to the
situation that I would be in.

Cause sometimes it can be so
nerve wracking on the exam
day to go into a testing

center. Right now we
use Prometric centers,

which I'm not sure if y'all
are familiar with those,

but you have to schedule
an exam slot online, a few,

usually a few weeks or months in advance.

And then the day of you show up
and you are assigned a computer

that has like the blockers all
around so that everyone is,

it's almost like small cubicles
around a little desk that has a

computer at it. So it's
definitely different,

but I think it sounds like
it's still pretty similar,

but a lot more computer
based and electronic.

So I guess that's our biggest difference.

Right. And maybe Tori, can you talk
a little bit about your motivation?

Denny had talked about wanting
to have more credibility in front

of people that were
management accountants.

What was your motivation
for taking the CMA exam?

Yeah,

so I found out about the CMA exam
during an IMA presentation at

my Beta Alpha Psy
meeting during undergrad.

It was actually my junior year of college.

And at the time I was taking our
cost accounting class which I was

really enjoying. And later
on I talked to the speakers,

they introduced the CMA exam
scholarship, and my cost professor,

Ms. Winegardner ended up
nominating me for that.

I think professors can nominate
up to 10 students each year.

And that's how I got the
Wiley exam test bank study

prep.

And it also covered my
exam fees for both parts.

So I was able to take, it's a very cost
effective way for anyone interested.

And I guess really my motivation stem
from how much current professionals who

were coming in to speak to us
and teachers and professors,

how much they were willing to invest
in me and seeing them support me

motivated me to put in the study hours
and to not only pass, but you know,

to really give it my 110% effort
and do well if it's something

kind of taking advantage of the
opportunities that are presented to me and

seeing if these people that I
respected and admired who were

doing so well in the
accounting profession,

if it's something that they
respect and is something

kind of seen as when you see someone
as a CMA that they know their

stuff, you know, kind of. And that's
something that I wanted to do.

And like I said,

just really see opportunities
and take advantage of 'em.

I like what you said about when you're
a CMA it means that you know your stuff

and that other people know your
stuff as well. So I guess, Denny,

my question is, once you passed the
exams and once you became a CMA,

did your career accelerate? Did you
find that you had new opportunities?

How did the CMA help you in your career?

Well, let me first of all go back.

Let me double back on something
that that Tori was saying.

I think it's terrific that she was
able to take the exam and become

a CMA while she is still in school.

I guess she doesn't necessarily get
the certificate until she has the work

experience. But most colleges,

most leading universities, I'm
at the University of Georgia,

she graduated from one of
our close competitors at the

University of Tennessee.
They tend to emphasize,

and I would say even
overemphasize public accounting

in the curriculum. And it's almost you

have to study for the CPA exam

as kind of the very narrow
focus for most of the students.

And the reality is that that a very

small percentage of the
graduates will stay in public

accounting,

where the CPA is really
a necessary part of

the work situation.

And most of them will
end up in some aspect

of industry, of corporate position.

I'm not suggesting that
that's what Tori's goal is or

where she will end up, who knows. But,

but preparing yourself for that

possibility more while
you're in university,

I think is something that students
should pay more attention to. So that,

that was my point there in terms of what

it did for me, again,

I think it achieved my goal of
giving me more confidence in

my, in my ability to
deal with individuals.

I have to say that I was already
pretty successful in my, in my career.

I became a partner at Ernst & Ernst,

it's now Ernst & Young at almost
the same time that I passed the

CMA examination became a partner

in the fall of 1972.

And that's just when I passed the exam.

I then later on became one of
the senior partners at the firm

and left in 1986 to become

chairman of the Financial
Accounting Standards board, where I

was for 10 years, served the
maximum of two five year terms.

They went on to the University of
Georgia and have also served on

six large corporate boards where
I chaired audit committees. So

I won't say that,

that the CMA caused all
of those things to occur,

but it certainly didn't hurt.

But my graduation from the
University of Southern California

didn't hurt my CPA.

Passing all four parts of that
the first time didn't hurt.

Working very hard all of
those years didn't hurt.

It all was part of the package. And again,

it if it was part of my overall,

not necessarily work plan,

but my career was one of continuing

education and continuing to try

to build on what I had done
previously and learn new things

and continue to get better.

And that shifts nicely into our next topic

because there's a lot of
continuous learning that
management accountants have to

do to meet the demands of technology

and the rapid piece of
digitization in the profession.

So, Tori, I guess I'm
gonna start with you.

How did taking the CMA
exam prepare you for

the technology that you'll
use in your job every day or

that you probably are using
in your job every day now?

So I was a tax concentration during my
master's accountancy where most people

now it's very popular to do information
management or at other schools,

sometimes it's called
information systems. So yes,

the CMA exam definitely taught me
a lot about data analytics in other

transformative technology and supplemented
what I wasn't learning as much in

class because I was
taking more tax classes.

I learned really well by
reading written words.

So learning about automation and
software systems during studying actually

has helped me understand the software
applications that I use now for work.

And it's given me just a new perspective
to troubleshoot when something isn't

working as it should, where before I
kind of would shut down and just think,

well, the computer's not doing
what it's supposed to be doing.

I don't know what to do because it's just
supposed to work this way and it's not

doing what it's supposed to.

Where now I kind of think
of potential issues in a way

that I never would've even kind of
considered to think about before.

Technology can be kind of like scary
or maybe hard to learn at first for me,

especially cuz I'm kind of, like
I said, I'm very traditional.

I'm not as good with learning
new things or I'm just not as,

I'm not excited about,
I'm not the first adapter.

I'm kinda a little bit more of a hang
back and see how things work out,

but it definitely adds value through
efficiency and minimizing human errors.

And it's really helped us be able
to work kind of in our new remote

environment.

A lot of our work processes would
not have been able to be moved to

remote if it hadn't been for all
the technology that we use now.

And I think that I definitely
add value to our team.

People come to me sometimes about some
of our systems that I've picked up really

quickly, even in my first year working,
just because I have that background,

like I was talking about from learning
how systems work and each of the

different processes and kind of the
backside of things when I was studying for

my CMA.

That makes perfect sense. And Denny,
as you watch technology evolve,

how has it changed the job of a
management accountant from when you

entered the profession to today?

It's just night and day. I mean,

back just as it was
pencil and paper to take

the CMA examination,

it was mainly pencil and
paper to do the work.

When I first started in public
accounting and was auditing

corporations, we then had very

rudimentary data processing.

We had 10 key adding
machines that we were using.

Tori mentioned that typing
was very important to her,

to learning how to type better.
That's something that stayed with me.

I took a typing class in junior high
school and fortunately that's something

that stayed with me for years and years.

But other than that things
are just completely different,

we didn't have coffee
machines. We certainly didn't
have cell phones. It's just,

I can't even describe all the
differences. It's just today,

it's it's a whole new world.

We have drones going out and
doing inventory accounts.

It's almost like science fiction, frankly.

If you tried to compare it to what
things were like 50 years ago.

Yeah, I bet.

It's been remarkable to see
the evolution of technology

and how it's changed
everything about our lives.

And Tori,

I know that you had said
that with technology,

you're not necessarily
the early adopter, but

you, you know,

like the increased
efficiency that it brings,

what excites you about technology?

I really like how it brings
people from really kind of all

across our teams now are so spread
out that you're not just working

with someone in the same office as
you. Although I will caveat that with,

it's hard sometimes.

It's nice to have our face
to face time with your team.

It's good to build those relationships,

but still technology has
enabled us to be working on

like the same client,
the same work papers.

You can check in our data management
system or document management system.

You can check in one set of work papers
and someone else picks it up on our

India team when it's so
busy during busy season,

we have people working 24
hours a day all across,

like in different time zones. And I guess
that kind of speaks to the efficiency,

but then also it's pretty neat that
we have teams that are so diverse and

spread out. It's pretty cool.

Yeah, the ability to work real
time around the clock and globally

certainly, you know, makes

multinational corporations
like run as well as they do.

And I guess shifting to
continuing education as a

requirement for maintaining the CMA.

And IMA providing continuing
education to all members.

Denny, I know that you've served on
IMA's financial reporting committee.

How has being an IMA member with
access to continuing education

helped you in your career?

Continuing education,
as I mentioned before,

has always been very important to me. And,

in public accounting,

the firm provided continuing
education as part of the job.

I'm sure that's true with
Tori as well right now.

But they also were willing to,

to pay for classes that
I could take on my own.

And I always consider that to be a
fringe benefit and I took a maximum

advantage of it.

I didn't go for an additional degree.

I started a part-time MBA and
then decided that was kind of

a waste of time because MBA programs
were very unsophisticated back then.

But I took a lot of individual classes
on things that I thought were very

germane to my job. For example,

some when data processing
was just becoming more

sophisticated, I started taking some
classes there, statistical sampling,

any number of of classes
that were being offered by

IMA, by the CPA societies,
by universities.

I wouldn't say it was
directly related to IMA,

although I've certainly
attended a lot of seminars,

annual meetings and
certainly chapter meetings,

which were very
educational, over the years.

But the key is to take advantage of

any opportunities that you have
and to keep learning and to try to

stay at least up to, if not ahead
of the curve if you possibly can.

That's very good advice. And Tori,

you a relatively new member of IMA,

how are you planning to take advantage
of IMA's continuing education

opportunities and are there any areas
in particular that you wanna learn more

about?

Well, I think kind of
like Denny was saying,

it's awesome that they provide so
many free resources to members for CPE

because a lot of people have
to seek it out on their own,

especially once you move into
industry. When I've talked to people,

it's kind of one of those things that
right now I'm in public accounting and

they push a lot of the
firm provided resources,

but then once you move into
industry or to smaller firm,

you kind of have to
find things on your own.

So it's really neat that the IMA website
kind of gathers that all for you in one

place.

I was actually looking around on their
website the other day and I plan to

attend some of the online courses and
they also have some webinar webinars

available that I'll probably try to
attend if it works my schedule and kind of

sign up for, I saw a course
on emotional intelligence,

which is pretty interesting to me.

I was reading about it and it stuck
out cuz it's so important to foster

relationships, you know, even when we're
trying to push through so much work,

sometimes we can get so focused
in on the work product instead of

the people we're around and
kind of building our team.

And I forget to be intentional with my
interactions with people when we get into

those high stress, busy season situations.

But I'm excited to take this course and
kind of hopefully learn how to better

empathize and work with other people
when we're in that business context

instead of just our everyday lives too.

That's great. Yeah, and there
has been a lot of, I guess,

research about the importance
of emotional intelligence,

especially among leaders
because technology is great,

but it's only as good as the
people that are behind it.

So I guess we can shift
to closing remarks.

Hitting the 50 year mark speaks
to the value of the CMA program.

I actually wrote a blog this year
about how the CMA program was built to

last with skills people
can use for a lifetime.

And there are not many things in this
world with that kind of longevity and

staying power. So, Denny,

what are your thoughts on the relevancy
of the CMA after 50 years of existence?

Well, I think it is very
relevant and I think the,

the the best thing is that
the size of the program

is much bigger,

much better than it has been ever. As

I said earlier,

I've been involved with
IMA for over 60 years now,

and the thinking back to
when the program started

and then being a national director for
a couple of years and of national vice

president and just being
active in general on the

financial reporting
committee, for example,

for I had a couple of
dozen years we've talked

and talked about growing this program.

And I can remember more than one
national president of the IMA

or chairman of the IMA saying,

we expect to have X number of
members by such and such a year,

maybe back in 1975,

we expected to have by 1980, a
hundred thousand members. Well,

most of those projections
never came to fruition.

And the program frankly,

was limping along for quite a long time.

But in the last 5 or 10 years or so,

it has really taken off. We

have many more members now.
It's much more recognized.

It's probably a lot more
frequent that you would see in

a, in an ad for a management
accountant that CMA

encouraged or required or
whatever it might be 50 years ago,

no one would even know what a CMA was.

So I think that's
probably the best sense of

relevancy is that the program has grown
so much and that it has sort of an

upward trajectory and people are finally

catching on that this is
something that's really important.

And I think it's just all up from here.

Well said. And Tori,

what do you think the next 50
years holds for the CMA and for

your career?

So I think that the CMA will continue
to enhance the accounting profession,

especially as it evolves to fit
the changing business world.

Like the heavier focus on information
technology we've talked about today,

offering resources to members,

it's gonna allow them to improve their
skills and to keep distinguishing

themselves from peers.

The CMA is definitely something that's
respected in the accounting profession.

So especially as we see more
and more jobs becoming obsolete

because of changing technology,

people are going to have to adapt and
learn a new skill set to make themselves

stand out.

So those resources that the
IMA is offering, you know,

learning about artificial
intelligence, ethics in a digital age,

and especially data security is huge now.

It's really gonna help IMA members
and people who earn their CMA to

keep contributing to our accounting world.

As far as my career, I'm not really
certain what the next 50 years will hold.

That sounds like a long time,

but I do know that
technology's not gonna go away,

whether I will be serving clients in
the public accounting or moving into

industry or even maybe
into the academic field.

I guess my plan is just
to learn as much as I can,

seeking insight from people around me
who are further along in their accounting

careers and who have experience
and insight that they can impart

and just continuing to take advantage
of any resources at my disposal.

I think the key to success
is being just receptive and

I'm excited about it.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard and you'd
like to be counted in for more relevant

accounting and finance
education, visit IMA's website at

www.imanet.org.