Ep. 355: Katie Trowbridge - Fostering Belonging and Innovation in the Workplace
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm Adam Larson and today I'm excited to welcome Katie Trowbridge to the show. Katie is a former marketing director turned educator, now working as a nonprofit CEO, and she's also the author of the new book, Lead Boldly, Think Deeply. In our conversation, Katie unpacks why the worlds of education and business are more closely linked than you might think, especially when it comes to the crisis of deeper thinking and the loss of everyday curiosity and the importance of real human connection at work. Drawing from her book, Katie challenges us as leaders to ask, Would I want to be led by me?
Adam Larson:And shares why honest feedback, psychological safety, and intentionally building time for creativity and camaraderie are more essential than ever. So if you're a leader navigating remote work, constant fire drills, or just looking for better ways to build trust and innovation in your team, you won't want to miss Katie's insights and practical advice. Stick around as we explore how leading boldly and thinking deeply can ripple out to every corner of your organization. Katie, thank you so much for coming on the Count Me In podcast. Really excited to have you here.
Adam Larson:You bring a different interesting perspective to leadership that I really wanted to get into, especially connected to your book. But you spent like twenty years in education and now you're walking into conference rooms and sweet sweets. Maybe walk me back to that moment where you realize, the connection to what was happening in classrooms and what you're seeing in the business world. Where did those two two collide?
Katie Trowbridge:Yeah. Well, actually, I'll I'll tell you the truth. It started before I went even into teaching. I was, in marketing and marketing director and a memo. I was working in banking and in marketing, and a memo came across my desk.
Katie Trowbridge:I had just dropped off my daughter at daycare who was crying saying, please don't go. And a memo came across my desk that said, our mission statement has changed. Our mission statement now is to help our shareholders become more profitable. And I looked at that mission statement and I thought, wait, why am I dropping my grant my daughter off and picking her up late and working my tail off so that somebody is more profitable? It really struck me as a life moment that I will never forget because it just made me question everything I was doing.
Katie Trowbridge:I love marketing. I loved what I was doing. I loved the business world, but I just felt like this made me start thinking something was really missing. And so a lot of people had told me that I would become a teacher. And I kept saying, absolutely not.
Katie Trowbridge:There'd be a cold day in hell that I am gonna be, and a bunch of a bunch of teenagers who will kill my love for literature and writing and reading. And, lo and behold, they were right. I went back to school and I worked full time in business and marketing and then, went back to school full time for teaching while I had, two children at that point. And first time I stepped in the classroom, I never looked back. But that was back in 1999.
Katie Trowbridge:And I will tell you that things started to change drastically in the classroom and in the leadership of principals. And we saw several different principals. And then going back leaving the classroom about three years ago and going back into nonprofit world as a CEO, I've noticed how much those two things are so incredibly related. So I saw this change around '20, I would say 2012, 2013 with my students, where they stopped being engaged. They stopped thinking for themselves.
Katie Trowbridge:They stopped being curious and creative, and they really stopped communicating with each other. A lot of it had to do with the fact that we introduced Chromebooks, we introduced cell phones, we you know, all these things. So there was not this need to start and really reflect. But then I saw those kids growing up and going into the business world. And all I kept hearing from my business friends was kids these days, they don't know how to work.
Katie Trowbridge:They have no work ethic. They and so I started to see it while I was in the classroom, what I'm seeing, so are my friends who are managers, directors, CEOs, they're just seeing the exact same thing. And so I really started to get into research and dive into the research to see what's happening, what's going on, and then really started to apply it to see, oh wait, education and business world, they're not that far apart from each other when it comes to engagement and learning and thinking. The world has changed and leaders have not changed with it.
Adam Larson:And that's crazy that, you know, there's always going to be leaders like, you know, men, no matter how much societies want to say, Hey, like we're, everybody's equal. There's always gonna be somebody who's saying, okay, let's do this next. There's always going be some sort of leadership there, but you would think that leadership would change with the times. And, and like one thing that you said in your book, like, you know, would you want to be led like, would you want to be led by you? And I was sitting there thinking, I'm like, would I want to be led by me?
Adam Larson:And then like, it kind of snowballed with me. You know, how do you, how do, how do you start getting people to have that conversation with themselves as they're looking at that? You know, especially in the accounting finance world, you know, it's very, there's a lot of metrics, there's results that have to be done. You know, you have to close the books, you know, there's things that have to happen every month. You know, how do you start looking at yourself and say, do I want to be led by me by how I lead people?
Katie Trowbridge:I think part of that is, and in the book I talked about this quite a bit and with my students I did as well, is feedback. You've got to get feedback from people. If you stay in your office and you never leave your office or in your cubicle and you never go outside and see the other people you're working around, you're gonna lose contact with what's really happening. Right? And so I might think I am an awesome leader, but then when I ask people around me, it's not the same thing.
Katie Trowbridge:And so there's that, that feedback that has to come. We just did a national study of a thousand working Americans across all the nation. And one of the things that was very telling is that when we talked to managers and leaders, they all said, oh, yes, I encourage deeper thinking and curiosity, but their employees said just the opposite. So it's that not being in touch. And the only way you can be in touch is if you ask.
Katie Trowbridge:And that's a tough conversation to have. And that means that you have to build a lot of psychological safety and you have to have this trust, which again, can be very difficult. So sometimes people just do an anonymous survey. They hire a consultant that talks to their employees. But I think that the most important thing is just to take some some reflection and get out of your office and hear what people are saying and how people are doing, right?
Katie Trowbridge:So that you can reflect on the fact that am I meeting their needs?
Adam Larson:Yeah. Well, and that's a lot harder these days with most organizations are hybrid or mostly remote if, if they see each other in person at all. So how can you go and ask those questions when your whole team is maybe stretched out across the world? Right. That's not easy to do.
Katie Trowbridge:No. It's not easy to do. I think that's why some companies are now go calling people back to work. I love the hybrid idea because see, there's moments that happen around the water cooler as they say, right, or in the break room and just those quick mornings, right, that can add so much meaning and purpose. And that's what people really are lacking is a lot of meaning and purpose, especially with, younger millennials and gen z.
Katie Trowbridge:They want meaning and purpose. And so that's missing. I think one of the things that we have to start doing is taking a moment to talk to each other, even if you're on Zoom. Before we jump right in, let's talk about, hey. What are doing?
Katie Trowbridge:And didn't you say that, you know, your grandson was playing baseball the other day? And wouldn't you I mean, like, having those conversations at first and maybe after, I think are key. And that takes time. And especially when you're thinking, well, that's not efficient. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:I have fifteen minutes and I have to get, you know, whatever done. It is incredibly efficient because the return on investments will be much higher when you have someone on your team who respects you, who wants to work for you, who wants to be there for you. We found that as well, that people aren't it's not always about salary and benefits. It's about having a leader who is caring and empathetic. So you've you've gotta take that time.
Katie Trowbridge:Whether you're rushed or not, slow down, ask your employees, ask your coworkers, not just how are you, but be specific.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:Like what was your favorite part of yesterday? What did you do that was the most fun this weekend? I mean, like those are the things like you gotta, that's just how are you? Cause you're going get fine.
Adam Larson:Yeah, that's true. Well, and what you're describing, you know, I love that idea of like, Hey, maybe we add five minutes to where we just kind of chat with each other. And sometimes I find that like if there's a couple of people get on early and they'll chat a little bit, but then once like the main person come on, Oh, let's just be quiet and let's, let's be serious. And it's hard when you don't feel that safe space to be able to chat with each other, especially in a virtual world because we're all super busy and we all feel overwhelmed. But sometimes you need that moment of, Hey, let's just chat about, Hey, did you see it snowed yesterday?
Adam Larson:Wait, it's May. What do you mean? You know, like being able to have those conversations is helpful.
Katie Trowbridge:Yes. Right. And I would even push back a little bit on the add five minutes and say, take five minutes out of something else.
Adam Larson:Yes. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:Because adding five more minutes is like, this meeting isn't ready an hour. Now it's an hour and five minutes. Like, no, no. What can I take out of this meeting that really doesn't need to be in there in order so that I can add this personal aspect to it?
Adam Larson:Yeah. I went as far as, after sitting and having a conversation like this with a podcast guest, I started I set my default outlook to twenty five minutes and fifty minute meetings. So it's the meetings are never a half hour. They're never a full hour. Let's get what we get can get done within this time.
Adam Larson:If it runs over, then let's let's stop the meeting and let's move on to something else. Like, let's not let's not waste time or let's be efficient with our time, but you also you can still leave room to have to have a quick chat with people as well.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. Right. Absolutely. And even The Atlantic came out with an article about a year ago now about how we are in an isolation crisis. And so, you know, I mean, we can't be so focused on effective, efficient, all those, you know, big key words, if we're also not being purposeful.
Adam Larson:You mentioned this a little bit earlier and you also mentioned in your book, this deeper thinking crisis. Maybe you could tell us like, what do you mean by that and what does that look like?
Katie Trowbridge:Yeah. So, you know, we always have, like you, you mentioned another leadership trend or another something trend. And what's what's really important is that we go back and we start saying, so what has brought us here? Right? And I think what what is happening is that we have lost our ability to feel confident in our creative and critical selves.
Katie Trowbridge:So we need there there's this lack of because we are inundated with so much information, right, on a daily basis, and because the algorithms feed us what we think we wanna hear, we have started to become creatures that just kinda go with the flow, and the flow of other people's thinking. So instead of really investing in, wait a minute, let me look at my thinking. Let me see creatively what can I do critically? What is the right answer here? And a lot of that starts with curiosity.
Katie Trowbridge:So I talk about how really the deeper thinking has four components. One is the beginning of curiosity. Curiosity. The what if. You know, standing on the shore of the ocean and thinking, wow, what's out there?
Katie Trowbridge:I wonder. Right? And then slowly getting into it and saying into the ocean and saying, okay. Now I wanna be creative. Let me think about all the different possibilities of things I could do.
Katie Trowbridge:And then really diving deep into, okay, so what? This is what's actually out there. This is what's actually out in the ocean. This is what I really wanna learn and know about more. So the Loch Ness Monster, I don't know.
Katie Trowbridge:Is that gonna be in the Atlantic? You know, I mean, it's it's like coming up with that what I believe statement. Right? And then lastly is the connection. And really, we've got to be connected because we think better together.
Katie Trowbridge:And right now we're in such silos and and we're just keeping to ourselves that we're not listening to each other. It all takes courage. Don't get me wrong. This is hard, especially in today's society.
Adam Larson:Yeah. But I
Katie Trowbridge:think that's the crisis we're facing is that we have all these opposites and people on different sides of whatever. Right? But we're not taking the time to actually talk to each other, listen to each other, think about what the other person is saying and then go, good idea, but I'm thinking this. And then for that to be okay. I'm not gonna just defriend you, Adam.
Katie Trowbridge:I'm gonna be like, interesting. That's interesting I that you think that appreciate that. I've learned a lot from you. And even though I'm different, I might say something different or disagree with you. We can still have a connection.
Katie Trowbridge:And that's the crisis. I think we're in a major crisis right now where people just are not thinking for themselves. And in our study, we found that people are afraid, that fear keeps them from thinking for themselves because they're so afraid of being judged. They're so afraid of the social media, you know, canceling those kinds of things that they would rather just stay silent. And that silence is gonna hurt our innovation.
Katie Trowbridge:We're not gonna be able to progress like we need to if we're just staying silent and saying whatever our boss says, okay, fine, whatever. It's a real crisis.
Adam Larson:And those, yeah, and those type of atmospheres kind of, kind of shut down creativity and even curiosity. Because if you don't have time to say, you know what, I have a meeting in an hour, but for the next half hour I need to really ponder what's happening, you know, for this project so that I can be ready for the next steps. But it's like, oh no, but I have meeting after meeting after meeting after meeting, or I have this pile of things working on, and then I can start working on this, you know, suddenly creativity and curiosity kind of get pushed down. When there's budget crisis, what's the first thing to go? The arts.
Adam Larson:Yep. But the arts is what helps bring creativity and bring life to all the other things. Like it's, it's, it's, it's interesting how we shut down something that can help us be better at our jobs.
Katie Trowbridge:Well, and I would say that so many people misunderstand creativity anyway. They think that creativity is, oh, I have to create a statue or a piece of artwork or a piece of music. And creativity, especially for your audience, they are so incredibly creative. Finance people, accounting people, you know, so many times they have to really be creative with the way they're thinking, the way they're processing. Maybe there's a different way we need to process this.
Katie Trowbridge:You know, what is this financial issue that we're having? Okay. Well, let's look at the bigger pit. Like, they are incredibly creative. Yet, even when I talk to math teachers and analytical thinking students
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:They all say they're not creative. So it's a real lack of understanding what creativity is. Creativity really is this ability to think about all different options. Right? Just come up with, as some people equate it to brainstorming, but it's so much more than that.
Katie Trowbridge:And so that's that's one of the things that people have to do is embrace their creativity.
Adam Larson:Well, and recognizing that, like you said, creativity isn't like, just because you can't maybe draw a picture doesn't mean you're not creative and recognizing your creativity in wherever you're working in.
Katie Trowbridge:Yes. And having the leadership to say, be creative. Right. I want to give you guys time to be creative. I think that we need we look for as employees permission to be curious and creative, and that's only gonna come from the top.
Katie Trowbridge:They have to model it, and they have to tell us, hey, let's take a few minutes and let's just creatively look at this situation before we just get into the solution. But so many times to just jump to the solution. And we're missing
Adam Larson:Well, things that and, and another concept that you talk about is like that fire drill type leadership where you're always reacting like, Oh, there's an alarm. Let's go, go, go. And it's funny because like, I, I know there's been times where I've been working and it's like, okay, what of the 20 fires that I've been thrown at me should I put out today? And I don't know that that's the best way that we should be leading our teams.
Katie Trowbridge:No, no, it's really not because then there are just the strengths of stress, strength, sense of urgency, sense of what's the quickest way I can solve this problem, which might not be the best way to solve the problem. Right? So it might be the quickest. So, you know, I I talk about in the book about the fire alarms that happened at school. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:You're in the middle of your lesson. The fire alarm goes off. Everybody grabs their jackets or whatever, runs outside, right, stands there in massive chaos of my high school with 3,000 students. So 3,000 students plus teachers standing outside. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:So now we're missing instruction time. We have to wait for the fire truck to get there for somebody who just pulled the alarm to be a brat or, you know, in the cooking class, pop from burger, whatever. Right? And then we gotta all funnel back in. And so the problem is is that now we have lost so much connection time, so much learning time because we're just fighting one fire drill after another fire drill after another fire drill after another fire drill.
Katie Trowbridge:It's I was talking to one fireman once said to me, it's so funny because schools are one of the safest places to be for fires. Very rarely does a school burn down. And yet we're always having these drills for no reason. You know? And and that's what I think we get into for leadership is problem came up, solve it.
Katie Trowbridge:Problem came out, solve it. Instead of sitting back and going, okay, we've had, like you said, 10 fire alarms in the last week. Why do we think that is? How can we help that? What ideas do we have to make sure that the fires don't happen in the first place?
Katie Trowbridge:Or maybe even if we can't not have fires, go from 10 to two.
Adam Larson:Yeah. But if we're
Katie Trowbridge:too busy to sit back and go, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let's think about this. Going back to your point earlier, we're, you know, we're so busy going one one one one one one to next meeting or whatever, then we can't, we're just going from fire drill to fire drill and we're not getting anywhere productive. We're not making that progress, that innovation that needs to happen.
Adam Larson:So what does that actually look like to shift from that reaction mode to something more intentional? Because it's obviously easier said than done. If your organization is going through a transition, sometimes there is not the space for that and you have to be in reaction mode. So like, what does that look like to actually physically like say, I'm not doing this anymore?
Katie Trowbridge:Right. Well, and I think you can't not do it anymore. There are going to be fire drills, you know, I mean, you know, in getting in school, you know, we have to have them, but it's the preparation for them. And it's when this happens, what do we need to do? And part of that is taking time to reflect, going back to reflecting as a leader.
Katie Trowbridge:Do I wanna be a leader? You know, do I wanna be led by me? And part of that is if your leadership is reactionary, your employees are gonna be reactionary. So you have to stop being reactionary by one, I would say changing your meetings is is essential. We hear over and over again in our studies and in our interviews that meetings are so unproductive.
Katie Trowbridge:It's more of a status check. What are you doing? What is what's the finance department doing? What's the marketing department doing? What's the sales department doing?
Katie Trowbridge:What and we don't really need to know all of that. That could be in a weekly memo. But what needs to be happening is sitting together in meetings and looking for solutions, looking for innovative ways, having a point where people can start to think together. So switching and shifting your ideas of meetings up. Okay.
Katie Trowbridge:Quick. Tell me what what's going on in everybody's lives, their workflow or place, what issues are because a lot times we say that. What problems are you facing? What issues are you having this week? Back up, back up.
Katie Trowbridge:Let's first talk about, let's work together. That stuff can be in a memo or whatever, but together let's shift our way of thinking and shift our way of meeting and connecting. Because I think then you're not when a fire drill does happen, which it will, we all know it's going to, when a fire drill does happen, there's that sense of trust, that sense of camaraderie, that sense of connection, that sense of, oh, you know what? Our leader values my questioning, my curiosity, my thinking. And so I can I can say something at this point, not just react?
Adam Larson:I really like that that idea of prepare, build camaraderie, build trust within your team so that when we do have to do a fire drill, we trust each other to get things done properly and quickly. Because I think a lot of times if you're always in fire drill mode, then you can never actually spend the time to build that trust between each other.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. Right. And and that is one of the key elements to all of this deeper thinking crisis. Ability to connect and talk and respect each other while we're doing our thinking. In fact, even in our study, said that fifty four percent of executives right now are leaving their jobs because they don't feel valued in their thinking.
Katie Trowbridge:And the ROI on that is huge. So if you've got 54% of your top executives leaving, and then they also said that 44% of employees are leaving for the same reason, because they just don't feel like their thinking is valued. I I mean, you think about it, how many times do you have a leader who walks in and says, oh, I'd love to hear your ideas, but you know, they already have the solution in their minds. Right? I mean, so many of us have, I know that so many of us have that.
Katie Trowbridge:Where you sit there in your chair and you think you really don't care what I think. You don't care what I have to say because you've already made the decision. You're just making it look good. And that, that problem is, is causing just chaos right now because people are forget it. I'm not gonna say anything.
Katie Trowbridge:I'm not gonna even participate. And that's that quiet quitting that's happening so much in our nation.
Adam Larson:Yeah. There's one thing that I've seen some, some good leaders do is like, we'll have like a team meeting instead of just going around and spending time, like, like a long time, like talking to people getting lost in like, oh, I'm working on this project. It's like, okay, here's some things I wanted you guys to tell you guys that didn't want to send an email. Here's some things I wanted to do. And hey, does anybody need help from somebody else?
Adam Larson:Let me help facilitate that. Because sometimes I feel like when you're trying, when you're still building trust, especially in a newer team, you don't miss, you know, maybe don't feel comfortable. Like, I haven't really talked to Katie. I don't feel comfortable going to ask her. But if the, if your, if your leader says, hey, does anybody need help?
Adam Larson:Well, actually, Katie, I needed help on this. Like it it facilitates that that that building of trust within the team.
Katie Trowbridge:Yes. Yes. Very much so. That is just it's absolutely spot on. And I think having those kinds of meanings to come together
Adam Larson:Mhmm.
Katie Trowbridge:Where it's almost like, here's a problem we have to solve. Let's solve it together. I think can change change an entire way a meeting is. Because, I mean, when finance is giving their their report, I wonder how much sales really is listening. Or when operations is giving their report, how much is you know what mean?
Katie Trowbridge:Like, it's kinda like that sitting in a classroom and somebody's giving a speech. It's not your turn to give the speech, but somebody else is giving a speech, so you're, you know, you're totally checked out. Well, that happens in meetings as well, not just classrooms. And so we're not we're not coming together and solving things together and having this sense of unity. And again, it goes back to that that crisis.
Katie Trowbridge:I think we're just in a crisis right now.
Adam Larson:Yeah, we are. So one thing I appreciated, you know, you were, you were saying talking in your book about, you know, asking the power of asking better questions. So maybe could talk a little bit about that because I don't think everybody quite understands like, you know, like, so what do say? What, why or why or not? Why and how?
Adam Larson:Like, is that the best way to ask questions?
Katie Trowbridge:Well, and, and the fear of asking questions, right?
Adam Larson:Yeah. You take
Katie Trowbridge:the confidence to do that. So one of the things that I have found is when we ask questions and we just say things like, well, why? People automatically get very defensive with the why question, because they think that you are questioning their intelligence, their maybe their emotions. So staying away from things like just why is so helpful. Asking questions, follow-up questions means that you really are actually listening and caring.
Katie Trowbridge:It also means that you're not shutting that person down and you are genuinely interested in their perspective. And part of that is simply saying things like, well, tell me more. Right? That's so interesting. I would love to know what else you think about this idea.
Katie Trowbridge:Asking questions, not why do we do it this way? About, you know, mean, a lot of it is obviously in our tone, but really genuine questions about tell me more about this. And I think we've lost the art of questioning. I mean, think about how we used to go out to coffee. We used to go out to the bars.
Katie Trowbridge:We used to go out and we would just that's where we had our third place. Right? We had work, we have home, and then we'd have someplace else where we would go and hang out like cheers, you know, everybody knows your name. And we've lost that a lot since COVID and and the sense of isolation that we're under. And so we've lost the ability to really be curious about each other and what each other does, how how we think.
Katie Trowbridge:So simply, love, love, love. It's not even a question. It's just tell me more. I love that.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:Because I I just I'm so interested in why you think the way you do. So asking questions can be in any situation and anything, but it's that vital part of being curious and genuinely authentically listening. You can't say, tell me more and then grab your phone and such. Right? Or tell me more and sit on your computer and answer an email.
Katie Trowbridge:Needs to be, tell me more. Why are you thinking the way you're thinking or what makes you or where have you read or, you know, those kinds of questions. And and seriously, just asking people things like, what are you reading right now? Have you watched any great TV shows lately? Goes a long way than how are you?
Adam Larson:And I think sometimes too, people are afraid. They're afraid of, of being wrong. They're afraid of messing up, you know, in environments like, you know, accounting and finance, you mess up the wrong, you put an extra zero in there, somebody suddenly it's a million as opposed to a thousand, you know, like suddenly you get those extra zeros. So I think there's, there's that fear of getting things wrong. So how do we, how do we help our teams get like, how do we create that atmosphere of like, Hey, it's okay to explore this.
Adam Larson:What might be right, what might not be right.
Katie Trowbridge:Right.
Adam Larson:But that's, that's not easy to do.
Katie Trowbridge:No. And in fact, it's ingrained in us since we were kids. Much more, even in schools. I really think it's got to start in the school system as well because so many people are taught that they have to get the A.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:Right? We emphasize the right answer. And especially in, like you said, in your finance and in that area, it's this is right and this is wrong. And if you have the wrong zero in the wrong place, it could be a huge it make a huge impact on the company. Because of that fear, we don't ask for help.
Katie Trowbridge:We don't ask for other people's opinions. We put our heads down and we move forward. And, and again, that I would say that has to start back in the education system where we have to start looking at it's okay to fail. That actually failing is part of the learning experience. Failing is how we grow.
Katie Trowbridge:Not that failing is gonna be punished. Right? And so that way, if I'm not afraid to fail, I'm willing to take risks to a certain extent, of course. Right. Cause Adam, like you said, if you put the comma in the wrong place, that could be really bad.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. But the fact is you're trying and you, and you have someone there and if we have that good connection, we can say, Hey, can you take a look at this? You know, is this, does this make sense to you? Does this look right? And because we have that trust factor.
Katie Trowbridge:Yeah. And because I, you know what, I tried something different with this this time. Will you just walk me through this? Right? I mean, that kind of, that allows for there to be an okay and not a judgment or fear of failure around that.
Katie Trowbridge:And that is key. And again, I'm going say that comes from leadership, right? It comes from the teacher. It comes from the principal. It comes from the CEO.
Katie Trowbridge:It comes from the CFO. I mean, everybody has to be like, look, I appreciate that you tried and took a risk with this. Might not have worked, but that's okay because actually it helped us insight into this one. And that's a whole shift in different in, in thinking. In fact, we look at curiosity, a lot of the studies, you know, we always say that, oh, kids lose curiosity.
Katie Trowbridge:You know, they're so little, there's always, why is this guy blue? Why is this way? And all, you know, over time school beats it out of them, work beats it out of them. In fact, research is now showing that it's not that. We're as adults, we are just as curious as we were when we were three, four years old.
Katie Trowbridge:We just learned that people judge us if we ask too many questions or we're afraid to be wrong. So therefore, we just we don't ask the questions. Right? We we stop being curious. And so because we're so afraid and we've got lot of it comes from the environment that a leader creates.
Katie Trowbridge:And that's why, again, I'm so passionate about this idea of, like, leaders have to create an environment. I I would even talk to teachers and the leaders and say, tell the story about how you messed up to your employees because now you are saying, look, I screwed up. It's okay if you screwed up. I don't care if it's I baked a souffle last night and it totally bombed or you're gonna believe what I did. I used salt instead of sugar in my recipe or right.
Katie Trowbridge:I mean, like, being vulnerable then gives everybody else permission to be vulnerable and say, oh, you're right. You know what? I failed to. And that's okay.
Adam Larson:It is okay. And it is interesting because a lot of these things are kind of born out of going to school because you're constantly told, you know, you have to pass, you have to pass to move forward. You know, every movie, oh, you got an F and the dads get so angry.
Katie Trowbridge:I'm mad,
Adam Larson:The kid has to go to summer school. We celebrate the Valley Victorian, but the person who's failing is a deadbeat. He's a stoner. He does this, he does those things. And it's there's never this middle ground of like, well, I didn't do so well on that test, so let me move on it.
Adam Larson:Like, there's there's always it's either they're failing or they're getting all A's. And we always forget that most of us live in the middle of like, hey, I may not have done well in this test, but I'm still doing okay. And I'm still, I'm learning from that and I'm growing from that. But we don't create this atmosphere of, hey, it's like, not everybody can be the Valley Victorian. That's only one person.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. In fact, have a little personal story I'll tell you really quick that I just got, just last week, a message from one of my students who I had a long, long time ago. And he was he struggled. He was failing. He was getting in a lot of trouble in the community.
Katie Trowbridge:He wound up dropping out of high school. And I remember the first day he got out of prison, he called me. And this is years ago. Like, I I'm I'm changed. I'm changed.
Katie Trowbridge:So I just got an email, and I bet he is, gosh, he's 30 now. And he just reached out to me out of the blue and said, I wanna tell you how thankful I am for you because you never stopped believing in me. And he's like, I am who I am today because of you. And it's so easy to write somebody off like that. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:You're failing, you're getting in trouble, you aren't worth it. But putting the effort in, you know, and I I mean, I just started crying because I was like, oh my gosh. First of he remembers who I am. Enough so that he wanted to reach out to me. But the fact that he's doing really well, like, he has a really good job.
Katie Trowbridge:He is a leader now in his community. Right? And so he has a family and he has kids and he was filling me in and everything. Like now he is an amazing, amazing man. But if you would have judged him when he was 16 and written him off, and we just can't do that as leaders.
Katie Trowbridge:I mean, there might be a time, right? Like, I know that there are times when, okay, you, you didn't do your job and you failed and we can't do this anymore. I've given you enough warnings and you are fired. Like that's gonna happen. Obviously that's reality.
Adam Larson:But yeah,
Katie Trowbridge:if someone feels comfortable enough to say, you're the kind of leader that I wanna work hard for, that's key. And I, and I had that a lot in my classroom too, where people would say that, you know, other teachers would say, I can't get this kid to work. How did you get this kid to work? Well, because I listened to them. I know what's going on.
Katie Trowbridge:I value them and I value their thinking. Yes, it's a little different than what you're used to, but that's okay. And our leaders have to do the same thing. You know, our, our young generation, they're brilliant. They're smart.
Katie Trowbridge:They just do things differently than than we've been raised to do as old people.
Adam Larson:Yeah. And I I've noticed that in art sometimes I've seen some of the newer shows kind of challenged pushing against that where you have the, maybe the younger detective and the older detective and the older detective is like, well, I'm just making assumptions based on their whole experience. And the younger detective is like, well, actually look at it from this perspective and it could be this. And they're like, what? And then they suddenly realize, oh, wait, you're right.
Adam Larson:And it's like, you should never be so set in your ways that you can't be told something and be like, well, let me look at it from that perspective for a moment and see if that's better for what this situation is. Because if we're so set in our ways that nothing ever changes, you are, you're going to miss a lot of things.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. And that's, that is the key to deeper thinking is being open minded enough to listen to other perspectives. And again, like I said, you don't have agree with them. I'm not saying, oh, we're going to have this utopia, kumbaya moment where everybody's like, oh, we all agree with each other. We don't want that to happen because that's where critical thinking stops.
Katie Trowbridge:We've got to be able to think and banter a little bit back and forth as long as you know what you're talking about. Yeah. Right. And that only comes from being a critical thinker. I've read this.
Katie Trowbridge:This is what I decided on. Here's what I think. But then also being open to saying, but tell me what you think. I want to hear your thoughts.
Adam Larson:And is, is that kind of like your, your concept you've talked about, like we're managing tasks versus mentoring minds? Yeah. So maybe we can talk a little bit about that because I feel like as leaders, have to kind of encourage people to expand their minds and expand their thinking, but also, hey, but don't forget to get your tasks done too.
Katie Trowbridge:Right. Right. And I think that there's a lot of different kinds of leaders, right? There's that kind of leader that get this done by Friday, period. Don't ask me questions.
Katie Trowbridge:Just get it done. A lot of times we are promoting people to leadership because of their skill in, like, let's say building widgets or you're so great at accounting, so now you now are the vice president of accounting. That doesn't mean that that vice president of accounting knows how to manage people. Yeah. They just know how to manage the tasks.
Katie Trowbridge:And so many times we are promoting people because of that, and what we're not doing is we're not giving them the training or helping them manage thinking and people. And that's where this disconnect is happening in our, in our world today. So yes, I might be able to get that, you know, that budget balanced where no one else can. But the problem is no one wants to work for you. No one else is doing it.
Katie Trowbridge:Right? So there's that kind of leader, but there's also the kind of leader that's like, oh, do whatever you want. Anything you, you know, you can't be that kind of leader either. There has to be that in between where I am managing tasks. I know I need to do this.
Katie Trowbridge:Hey, everybody, you need to get this done by Friday. I don't care how you get it done. Just get it done by Friday. And if you need help, let me know.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:You know, and I think that that's the kind of leadership where we're, we're not just managing tasks, we're managing thought. So we're going in and saying, Hey, Adam, I know I gave you that project. How's it going? How many thoughts? How are you doing with it?
Katie Trowbridge:What can I do to help you? Right? Is there any questions that you might have that I might be able to assist you with? No, you're good? Rock on.
Katie Trowbridge:Let me know. Friday's your deadline. Now, Friday comes around and you haven't done it, you bet you're getting called into my office.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:Right? And you're gonna be asked, okay, what happened? But first, I'm gonna ask what happened. I'm not gonna say, you didn't get this done. I I'm gonna say what happened first, because I need to know first as an empathetic leader, is there something I should have known about that I missed?
Katie Trowbridge:Like, did their parent die? Did their is their child sick at home with mono? Is that, know what I mean? Like, what do I need to know? And if they're, if they're like, oh, I just didn't get it done.
Katie Trowbridge:All right, then we have a problem. Let's brainstorm together why you didn't get done. How are you managing your time? Because we need to fix this. If not, there could be consequences.
Katie Trowbridge:Right? So that's managing thinking. Tell me why you didn't get this done. Let's reflect on what happened here. What who might you have asked?
Katie Trowbridge:Right? Oh, you needed, you know, Jody's help? Well, let's call Jody in. Jody, can you help us? Right?
Katie Trowbridge:So teaching, it's that I I really think that really good leaders are good teachers. You're educating people on how to think, how to ask for help, how to ask questions, how to be curious. So that's why so much I focus in on the fact that I think we can learn a lot from really good educators on how to be better leaders.
Adam Larson:Yeah, you really can. I like, I just, sorry, my mind is going in so many different directions right now just because it I just feel like every leader should sit down and talk about this because sometimes people are thrust into leadership. Like you said, they were really good at something and they were the best at what they're doing. So they put them in leadership. But what if they've never been trained on how to lead people?
Adam Larson:What if they've never actually taken a leadership course? I mean, even some leadership courses aren't talking about what you're talking about. They're, you know, like, if, you know, what if good leadership is like, hey, take like five or six great communication courses so you can become a better communicator so you can work with your team better. Because there's that leader who never wants to talk to you, never wants to reach out. And you're like, how am I supposed to get anything done?
Adam Larson:Because I can't even, I can't even get in touch with this person. It's like this
Katie Trowbridge:constant back
Adam Larson:for you. And we We have to
Katie Trowbridge:just think, well, of course you can communicate, but we can't in our society anymore. We can't. It's we have to practice that skill. It might be used to be where we would all go on in the playground as kids and play together. Right?
Katie Trowbridge:And we but we we're not doing that as much anymore. Kids aren't doing that. We're I even talk about recess in the book. Like, we have to have, you know, recess even at at our workplaces where we are learning how to communicate with each other just by having fun and playing.
Adam Larson:Yeah. Well, it is interesting too because at a certain point in school, they stopped doing recess. And I'm like, okay, but we don't give these kids time to decompress and like, Okay, maybe that's lunch. But even then, like they still need that time to kind of process things. You need to give space in between different activities to reset.
Adam Larson:Like, I think I was reading somewhere like, what does it take? Five to ten minutes in between activities to kind of reset the mind to make sure that you're ready to go for the next activity. And we don't, we don't like, you know, maybe that five minutes is you have to walk between one class to another or between one meeting and another. And if one meeting goes over, then you're running to the next meeting and you have to like, we, how do we create that space in an organ, especially, you know, teams are running lean right now. There's organizations are tightening their belts.
Adam Larson:They're firing people. And so suddenly we have more and more things to do. How do you create that space for like, I think you call it the recess bell, you know, you How do you create space for that in the organization? Right?
Katie Trowbridge:Well, because even when you said like recess disappears, but I would argue that recess is needed more in middle school and high school. Right? And so when we look at as adults, if when we take time to play, we let go of some of some of our inhibitions and we just laugh and we have fun. And that's where real connection can start happening. That's where real trust and respect can start happening because now we're just having a good time together.
Katie Trowbridge:I just did a training at the Longo in Chicago with a bunch of leaders. And one of the things that they are just like, we're constantly busy, constantly busy. We've got one thing, the next thing. So I had the person who was organizing it add in recess time. And so we actually went to bowling alley and we, we went bowling and we, and the feedback I got was your training was really great, but adding that research onto it, that recess onto it made it so much better because we've never laughed like that before.
Katie Trowbridge:We've never had fun or joked around with each other like that before. And so I know it's hard to say to an overworked team member, oh, tonight we're going to go bowling. And now I need you be away from your family. You've gotta work it into what you're already doing. There's a company that I know of that one supporter, they actually shut down their office for the afternoon and they all do something fun.
Katie Trowbridge:But during work hours, they go to a baseball game, they have a huge potluck, they've done a lot of really cool fun things together during work hours. Now does that stop? And they're in operations and finance and engineers. So they they are analytical thinkers, but their leader has said, we gotta stop because that's when your brain works better and thinks better. And so taking that time to just have fun.
Katie Trowbridge:I had one of my favorite marketing leaders did this on a monthly basis, he would rotate. So each month, one one employee was in charge of the month. And we had to put together a song playlist of our favorite songs that we would play in the break room. We had to prepare our favorite meal for everybody. We had to bring in our, during lunch one day, we had board games and so some of our favorite board games.
Katie Trowbridge:And so and we had to lead the meetings the way we'd wanna lead the meetings. I mean, it was I got to know like, got to know that one of my coworkers was a champion Scrabble player. I had no idea that she was a champion Scrabble player, but he allowed us time to do that. And that, that is something that can be very easily done and not cut into productivity because it's actually gonna make you and make people feel much more of a part of this idea of belonging is so huge in our society today. And we see it in the classroom.
Katie Trowbridge:We see it in our communities, like you're getting to know your neighbors. Why is it different when we get into this workforce? We've got to feel like we belong now. Otherwise, we're not going to do the work that needs to be done. And that's really what's going to cut into productivity.
Adam Larson:Yeah, it really is. Like I, I, one time, I had some coworkers, we were all fans of The Office and we had been talking about like, should just watch The Office together sometime. And we're like, one day we're like, we all ordered lunch. We put it, we booked a conference room. And during our lunchtime, we all sat there eating lunch and we watched the episode of The Office.
Adam Larson:Half hour, we had a good laughs and then we were done, but it was like, I'll never forget that moment of like, Hey, let's just watch the, let's launch an episode of The Office together. We're not taking away from anybody's time. Everybody's scheduled this time for lunch and let's just, let's eat it together. But it's, it's building that camaraderie to like, like we've been saying this whole time to, it builds trust between you two so that you can have that familiarity saying, well, I don't mind asking Katie a question because we, we have that connection now.
Katie Trowbridge:Well, and how many of us work through lunch? The fact that you took time out and laughed together and we sat together is huge because so many, I don't, I'm a huge culprit of it, of sitting and eating, eating my lunch while I'm still working. Right? And we're not giving our bodies and our minds a chance to just breathe a little bit. And laughter and playing can bring so much to us that we can't forget to add that in as a leader.
Katie Trowbridge:And as a leader, I gotta be able to make sure that I can make you last sometimes, or I can give you something fun. One of I will say that my husband is one of the one is an amazing mentor and and leader. He he's just incredibly good at it. And one of his employees loves potato chips, and she eats them when she's stressed. And so he knew she was really, really stressed.
Katie Trowbridge:So he ran to Costco and he got a bunch of the little bags of potato chips and put them all over her cubicle and said, pull in case of emergency. Like, something just little like that. I mean, the fact that he knew that she loved cereal chips. He knew that she ate them when she was stressed. He knew that she was stressed.
Katie Trowbridge:He took the effort to go to like, those little things, and then so and she remember her telling me, and then so much to her that he would do something like that and made her laugh and made her feel like she belonged and that she was recognized. Those are the little things that we can do that she will work so hard for my husband now. She he has such a big fan. Right, that those are the leaders you wanna be, the kind of leaders that, man, you remember. Yeah.
Katie Trowbridge:I I always talk about that teacher you remember in your life, right, that teacher who made a big impact. We need leaders like that. You're a leader that made a big impact in my life, and and I want to be like you and be a leader like you. And a lot of generation X and millennials are telling me they just don't see the leadership right now. They don't see mentoring of leaders.
Katie Trowbridge:So why be a leader? Because they don't see any good leaders out there. That's a problem. That's the crisis we're in.
Adam Larson:Yeah. I remember one time I was in an organization and they were like, oh, we're having mentors. And I was, I was like on the path to becoming one of the leaders. And so they're like, oh, join our mentor group. And I looked at the people and I was like, I don't trust or respect any of those people.
Adam Larson:I don't even want to sit like I and maybe that was on me because I hadn't taken the time to get to know them, but just judging by how they had acted within the organization, I didn't feel like I connected with any of them to the point where like, I want this person to mentor me. And I felt kind of left out because it's, I was like, the one person I want to isn't unavailable or, or the one person I may want to, maybe they, they, they, that's where everybody else wants to go to because that's the best, like, you know, whatever it is. Organizational, like mandated mentoring doesn't always work sometimes.
Katie Trowbridge:No. No, it doesn't. And again, it goes back to that we're managing. Who are we promoting? Right?
Katie Trowbridge:Yeah. We're promoting the the managers of tasks, not the mentors of thought. And I think that that's that is what is kind of scary right now in our leadership and in our organizations is that we're not seeing those mentors. And so then we're not having that, that pathway to help there be future leaders. And that's where we're gonna get in in real trouble.
Katie Trowbridge:And I know we have everybody talks about AI and AI is gonna be blah blah. AI is not going to be able to be the leader that we need. And that's what we're we're really struggling with right now is finding those and like you said, that are trustworthy. And I always say to leaders too, you gotta be the person you think your employees need that you want to be even when you think nobody's watching. Because somebody probably is.
Katie Trowbridge:Like you just said, I watch them and I didn't get the sense that they were good leaders. And you said, it might be my fault I didn't get to know them. No, you did because you watched them and they didn't prove to you that they they were good leaders. And that's where leaders of Goddess are thinking, even if that door is shut, that email you sent, that announcement you made, that people are watching.
Adam Larson:They are. Well, this has been a great conversation and I kind of want to leave our audience. We've covered a lot of different things throughout this conversation. And if there's one thing that you want kind of people to take away from this that say, hey, maybe if I start doing this tomorrow, it'll help create that ripple effect that you talk about in your book where, you know, you know, a single stone can create this infinite ripples within within an ocean. Like we can do that within our lives by starting with just one or two things.
Katie Trowbridge:Yeah, absolutely. I say number one would be, we're going to go back to where we started on this conversation and that's being reflective. Are you the kind of leader that you would want to be led by? I think asking yourself that question honestly is absolutely key. And then I think number two is being curious.
Katie Trowbridge:Asking and getting feedback. So what are the things that I can do in order to help my team be stronger? Mean, just even walking into the office tomorrow or sending out an email tomorrow or or whatever that's saying, hey, I was just curious, how are you doing? Is there anything I can help you with? What can I do to help?
Katie Trowbridge:Like, I think that is so important.
Adam Larson:Katie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I encourage everybody to check out our book, check out our website on the show notes. All those links will be in the show notes. And, it's been really great chatting with you and getting to know you and thank you so much for coming on.
Katie Trowbridge:You too. Thank you so much.
Announcer:This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.
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