Adam Larson: 00:21

Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm Adam Larsen. Today, I'm joined again by Steve McNally. The last time Steve was on the show was back in 2019, and a lot has happened since then. In this episode, we're focused on career transitions in the finance world, something Steve knows firsthand, having moved from Fortune 500 companies to small business CFO roles.

Adam Larson: 00:39

We'll talk about building a successful career plan, becoming truly adaptable, and how to earn your seat at the table by building strong business acumen and relationships. Steve also shares the underrated qualities that make great leaders, like curiosity and the ability to influence without authority, plus strategies for staying relevant in today's fast paced industry. If you're thinking about your next career step or want actionable advice for growing as a finance professional, you'll get plenty in this conversation with Steve, so let's jump right in. Well, Steve, I'm so excited to have you back on Count Me In. Last time you were on with us, it was in 2019, and we were talking about business transformation.

Adam Larson: 01:21

And you were going through some big business transformations at yourself during that time with the organizations you were at. And so this time, like, we wanted to I wanted to come you back on. We saw each other, you know, a month ago or so, and I thought it'd be really good to to catch up and kinda talk about career transition and and you know, because you've been through a lot of different transitions during your career. And I and you're a great, resource to chat about that, and you've been going around speaking at different places kind of about the same thing. And so, like, what makes a career transition successful in the finance world?

Steve McNally: 01:52

First of all, really excited to be back, Adam. So thank you very much for the opportunity. In regards to career transitions, I mean, it really starts with career itself. Right? I mean, what are what are your career goals and objectives?

Steve McNally: 02:04

And when I was global chair, one of the things I talked a lot about was the importance of having a strategic career plan. Where do you wanna end up? That said, in my case, as you mentioned, I've had a few transitions along the way. I I started my career as a public accountant, p w, in Philadelphia, and then I was with Campbell Soup Company for a long time, built a career there, multiple positions. So many career transitions within the company itself.

Steve McNally: 02:31

And then more recently transitioned into a small business CFO role. That said, what makes for a successful transition? I mean, first of all, it starts with really knowing what you want to do and does this particular opportunity fit in with your goals, with your objectives, and then going from there. So, you know, things like doing your pre pre hire due diligence. When you start, have an onboarding plan, make sure that you're aligned with aligned with the, in my case, the CFO, aligned with the CEO in terms of goals and objectives, build relationships, any new role, whether it's within an existing company or to a new company, those relationships with your team, with your boss, with your cross functional partners, absolutely critical.

Steve McNally: 03:14

And it's getting to know them personally as well as professionally. As a CFO, I mean, if you're transitioning to a new company, I'll tell you what, you know, despite the pre hire due diligence that you did, the reality is once you hit the ground, you're gonna learn things you didn't find out, especially with a smaller private company. So once you are in the door, it's critical to learn about what's the real situation, and there's a good chance that situation might require some immediate action. So stabilizing the business. So once things are stabilized, then going ahead and really thinking through with the CEO what's the longer term goals and objectives.

Adam Larson: 03:55

It's gotta be different for every company that you're going into. And it's and it and it I can see how overwhelming it could be if you're going from a big, like, a big huge corporation like Campbell's down to a smaller business or even from a smaller business to a larger corporation. What can are there steps that you took or that you think that that professionals can take is to be more adaptable and valuable as they're going from in different industries and different roles?

Steve McNally: 04:19

Well, it's funny you mentioned that. Certainly, as I was contemplating going from a Fortune 500 Campbell Soup to a smaller company, one of the first questions people ask is, are you sure you'll be successful? Are you sure you'll be able to handle this? Because, you know, at a Fortune 500, in most cases at least, based on my experience at least, there's a lot of resources. There's a lot of people.

Steve McNally: 04:42

Roles are pretty well defined, meaning you don't you have much more narrow focus in the scope of roles. Whereas when you move, especially into a smaller company, all bets are off in terms of what your roles and responsibilities will be. You're gonna be rolling up your sleeves. And things that you delegated for years as CFO, you know, whether you're CFO or some senior role in a Fortune 500, now all a sudden, as CFO for small business, you're gonna be approving those journal entries. You're gonna be signing those checks.

Steve McNally: 05:17

You're gonna be reviewing those reconciliations personally. You're gonna be preparing those analyses, which in the past you delegated. So it's a very different role. But for me, it's it's what makes it fun. Also, going from that big to the small, honestly, you really are much more your your your mandate is much more broad.

Steve McNally: 05:39

The things you'll do is much more the the scope is so much larger. So I I would say my role as a small business CFO, yes, CFO was my title. But in reality, finance and accounting was maybe 25% of what I did. I had accountability for IT, accountability for facilities management, accountability for operations coordination. And my biggest role was being that right hand to the CEO, ensuring that the CEO, quite frankly, not one decision was made without us talking through it, making sure that we're both on the same page.

Steve McNally: 06:15

So it really is a much different experience, but makes it much more exciting too.

Adam Larson: 06:20

What you were describing makes me think of there's a slide you like to use for the CFO has many different hats, and you show the different hats with all the different labels on there. And and maybe you could talk about, like, what it means to be that versatile, you know, person who's earned that seat at the table, who's there, and has to wear all those different hats because it's not just, hey. I'm not just checking spreadsheets and making sure everything's right. There's so much more to the CFO than just that.

Steve McNally: 06:43

Well, I I guess, first of all, earning your seat. I I when I was global chair, that is something I talked about a lot. And the background there is I'm a rower. Rode at Villanova University. I still row as part of the Toledo Rowing Club here in Ohio.

Steve McNally: 06:58

So I'm a rower. And therefore, for me, earning your seat has two meanings. Right? The first meaning is in sports, earning your seat in the boat. However, it definitely applies to being in business as well, especially for us as finance and accounting professionals.

Steve McNally: 07:15

And earning your seat is all about earning the right to be at the table, to be in the discussion, to help drive that organization forward. And, of course, it applies to CFO. Let's come back to that. But it truly applies to any finance and accounting professional. And the example that I like to give, when I was the finance executive for Campbell Soup's Napoleon operations here in Ohio, which are Campbell's largest supply chain operations throughout the company.

Steve McNally: 07:43

I'd hired it was actually a brand new position as a manager of financial planning and analysis. And when she came in the door, my intent was to have her sit in on the daily direction setting team for our US soup group. So a very important group within the supply chain operation, and therefore, an important seat to be at. And I'll be honest, after the first month or two, I had the plant manager coming to me and saying, hey. You know, why is this person here?

Steve McNally: 08:12

She doesn't add value. She doesn't talk. And so we then you know, this woman and I, we talked through it, and I said, hey. You know, number one, you need to earn your seat there. So when you're there, learn everything you can.

Steve McNally: 08:26

And in fact, part of learning what she could was getting out of her office, going along the production line, meeting those on the production line, learning every step of it, learning about what the products were tangibly touching them, and then in those meetings to really take notes. So it took a few months, but first, it was her really engaging, understanding the business. Then she started, you know, being assigned from the team, hey. Can you go do this? Can you do go do that?

Steve McNally: 09:00

And bringing back that support, that insight, that analysis, that helped her earn her seat. But then it got to the point, and this was the real goal, where she'd be in the meeting and she'd hear the conversation, then she'd say, hey. I think an analysis of this or that would help you. Shall I go do that? And so she was then becoming proactive in supporting the team.

Steve McNally: 09:24

And so a few months later, all of a sudden, the plant manager is like, you know what? She's great. Thank goodness she's on on the team. Thank you for having her here. But that's earning your seats.

Steve McNally: 09:34

It starts with really understanding the business, being totally engaged, and adding your input, sometimes specific to your function, in our case, finance and accounting. But even if you build that general business acumen, you're offering suggestions above and beyond just being that finance person. Again, earning your seat, it's all about being at the table as a business partner first and as a financial and accounting functionalist second. It's leveraging your background, your abilities, your skills, but leveraging it to be that business partner at the table.

Adam Larson: 10:10

And that's a I I love the way you describe it because a lot of times people are saying, oh, be that business partner, be that business partner, but nobody really says, well, how do you become that business partner? I like how you mentioned general business acumen. It's not something you necessarily see in your accounting one zero one classes. Make sure you have your general business acumen to be a better leader in the future. So let's talk a little bit about that.

Adam Larson: 10:29

Like, what does that look like?

Steve McNally: 10:31

So it's funny. You're right. We don't talk about it in the classes, but to me, that general business acumen is probably one of the key ingredients to success, if not the key ingredient. I guess I was always fortunate. At Campbell Soup, we were big believers with all the different cross functional partners, finance and accounting, marketing, sales.

Steve McNally: 10:51

We always felt it important to build well rounded professionals. And I go back to well, even started my first role at Campbell Soup as an internal audit. And as part of internal audit, went to different locations around the world, different parts of our business, and got an insight into those businesses. That's where it started. But then another one of my early roles, I became the manager finance manager for missus Paul's Kitchen's frozen food business.

Steve McNally: 11:19

And on day one, my boss, was a finance I don't know what the title was. You know? Maybe he was a a director, VP. I don't know. But on day one, he said, look.

Steve McNally: 11:31

You need to get out there. You need to go to each of missus Paul's manufacturing sites to learn the products, to learn the production process, to learn the people, and you need to get out to one of the missus Paul's field sales teams and walk the street, go into the stores, reset the shelves to learn that part of the business. That was invaluable because by learning the products and the production process, by learning the sales and how the sales works, it brought the balance sheet. It brought the p and l to life. And if Mhmm.

Steve McNally: 12:04

The more you understand the business, the more effective you'll be as a business partner. Along with that, it's not just tangibly going out and walking the production line and walking with the sales organization. It's also doing your research. Learn about your customers. Learn about your vendors.

Steve McNally: 12:22

Learn about any special projects that are going on as you walk in the door. Learn about your competitors. Also, really important. If you're running a business, you need to know what the competitors are doing so that you can react accordingly. So, yeah, building that general business acumen, that is so critical to be effective, and that is a challenge.

Steve McNally: 12:43

You know, you talk about transitioning from one business to another. Just changing from one company to another even in the same general business, there'll be new things to learn, new general business acumen to develop. But if you jump from one industry to another or one sector to another, well, then it's an even bigger jump and more to learn. But on beginning day one, even during the prehire phase, start learning that new business. It'll enable you to earn your seat.

Adam Larson: 13:17

I I like that. I there's a a thought I had. I remember I started at a comp, like, one of the first companies I worked out of at college. I was in their customer service center. And we'd sometimes meet the the leaders, and, like, we were in one location, and the leaders were, like, in another city miles, miles away.

Adam Larson: 13:32

So when the vice president would come, it was like this whole it was pomp and circumstance because, you know, the high the great c suite person is coming to the office. And and one thing that I always thought about, I'm like, I would love for that c suite person to come sit on the phones and listen to what their customers are saying for a week just so they could, you know, bridge the gap of where they are in this high lofty corporate office as opposed to us lowly, you know, call center who's connected to one of their warehouses. And so it's an idea that I've had, and it wasn't until I you were just saying that I remembered that I I was always thinking that. And when I was going through my business classes and stuff like that, was thinking, why don't companies do this? And it sounds like you guys are doing some version of that at Campbell's, which is which I think is great because if you're coming in, you have to understand how the organization works, not just at the high level.

Adam Larson: 14:16

You the guys who are on the front lines doing things right there, you need to understand what they're going through so that when you're making decisions, you know that your decisions are affecting Sue who's on the on the front line, you know, talking to customers every day.

Steve McNally: 14:29

Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, whether it's a big company like a Campbell Soup, whether it's a small business, it's critical for the leadership team, the executive leadership team to, yes, get out there, learn the operations tangibly, touch it, but also meet the people on the floor. Because what you find is often is those, as I say, in the trenches, they're gonna have the best ideas. They they know what they're doing day in and day out.

Steve McNally: 14:55

They're gonna be able to tell you, hey. If you just change this or change that, it could be so much better. And or they're gonna share with you, this is what really gets to me. If you could change this, I'd be so much happier in what I do. When I came out to to Napoleon, Ohio as the finance executive, we also soon after had a change in the site executive.

Steve McNally: 15:17

And so we really wanted to change the culture of the organization. And it's really interesting. We used to joke that individuals were the mayors and the trustees of their local communities, but then they'd come in, check-in, but sort of check out their minds. Well, that doesn't make any sense because, truly, those that are on the floor doing the work are in the best position to to come up with the ideas to continuously improve and make the operations better and smoother and more safe. Yeah.

Steve McNally: 15:50

It is so important for executives to be connected with and to know what's going on in the four walls of their organization.

Adam Larson: 15:58

Yeah. So now you've mentioned that you've you've done some when you were coming up in your career, you did a number of internal transitions within a company. Sometimes people look negative on internal transitions because sometimes they can be unilateral. Sometimes they're not always they don't always go up. Are there lessons that can

Steve McNally: 16:14

be drawn as you make those internal transitions, and how did they shape your leadership development? For me, I couldn't imagine my career being otherwise, and I'll explain that. So first of all, it does go back to what is your strategic career plan, goals, or objectives? Where do you want to end up? And as you then make decisions in terms of a transition, a move, whether it's internal to the company, whether it's external, is that next opportunity consistent with where you wanna go?

Steve McNally: 16:46

Mhmm. I truly believe you can't get hung up on title. Of course, you wanna be paid for what you do appropriately, but especially when you're newer in your career and as you're advancing, getting those experiences and developing those skills upfront is so important down the line. So in my case, I mean, Camel Soup and and I assume other Fortune five hundreds and hopefully all large companies are like this, there's so much opportunity. You know, throughout my career, I was in supply chain, in marketing, in sales, in corporate controllers, in internal audit, and on special projects, Sarbanes Oxley, y '2 k, year 2000.

Steve McNally: 17:30

Not sure if anyone remembers that, but that was a big deal for companies. The world was gonna end. Well, I was actually co leading the y two k initiative for Campbell's most important systems. So just those kind of experiences and the skills you develop in those roles, they're critical, And you won't get that if you're just staying in one particular position. So each role, as long as it's consistent with your longer term goals and objectives, it can be a springboard to where you ultimately wanna go.

Adam Larson: 18:02

Yeah. No. I like that. I like that perspective because sometimes we get lost in titles and we get lost in, like, am I moving up in the world? It's like, well, what's your goal?

Adam Larson: 18:10

Because sometimes the goals, you don't always go up when you're when you're when you're you're going on a trip and a road trip. Every road isn't just a straight road. You have to wind around. You have to go up. You have to go down.

Adam Larson: 18:20

And I think it's the same thing with our careers is sometimes you go up. Sometimes you go a little down. Sometimes you have to go around where you were, and and that's that that's part of what builds our character and and our and and everything that we're learning.

Steve McNally: 18:33

It's funny. In one of my earlier roles at Campbell Soup, the general manager, and you hit on it, you know, he he he put it this way. Number one, a career is a marathon. It's not a sprint, So you need to be thinking that way. And number two, use the analogy sort of like you just did.

Steve McNally: 18:50

Think of a career as like a brick wall. And if you think about the cement, sometimes you go up, up, up, and then you go right or you go left and up and over and up and over. As long as you're ultimately getting to that long term goal and objective, it works. But it is definitely a straight line. And, also, the other thing you said is you cannot script a career.

Steve McNally: 19:12

You need to have that general plan of where you wanna go. But at the end of the day, you also have to seize those opportunities as they come along, which is what makes it fun. If we had a crystal ball and knew exactly what we do each and every day and year, how boring would that be?

Adam Larson: 19:28

Yeah. That would be really boring because I I think all of us would kinda go insane after a while if it was the same thing every single day. Right?

Steve McNally: 19:37

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Adam Larson: 19:40

Are there, like, are there qualities that you think are undervalued that people don't really put enough emphasis on when when rising up and becoming a better leader, especially in the finance and accounting team?

Steve McNally: 19:50

So, of course, you need the technical skills and the analytical ability. They're the table states. But I think importantly, and and maybe they're not talked about enough, number one is being inquisitive, being curious. What I found in many of my roles is be by asking questions, by being inquisitive, simply by wanting to learn more, you identify those opportunities that were just missed by others. I even think about my first you know, when I transitioned from Campbell Soup into becoming a small business CFO.

Steve McNally: 20:21

That first week, essentially, what I did is I shadowed the CEO, spent pretty much twenty four seven with the CEO, whether it was in one on one meetings he was having with his reports, whether it was in, you know, different update meetings. But one that really sticks out is he invited me into this meeting to talk about them developing a new website with their sales and marketing person. Clearly, developing websites, it's not my background, not my expertise. And so my original intent was just to be there and listen and learn, but I can't help myself. And so at some point during it, asked a few questions, made a few comments, few suggestions.

Steve McNally: 21:01

And long story short, you know, the feedback was, woah. Where did that come from? You've only been here for a few days. How did you think of that? Why did you ask that?

Steve McNally: 21:10

Where'd that idea come from? And what it comes down to is if we're curious and we're inquisitive, which I think as finance and accounting professionals, we are by nature. If we are, we're gonna get others, our cross functional partners to think different as well. Number two is the importance of influencing without authority, especially as we're younger in our career. But we're all, at least in my case, given various projects and assignments working with cross functional partners where they didn't report to me, but we still had a goal and objective and had to get it done.

Steve McNally: 21:45

So being able to work with others and, you know, influence and motivate others and paint the vision of where we're trying to go, that influencing with an without authority is critical. Also, and I'd like to say it's only in bigger companies, but I, unfortunately, see in all companies, political savviness. You know, you really we don't talk about it much, but the more effective people are politically savvy and know And maybe that also comes with building the relationships with your cross functional partners, with your team, with the broader organization, but knowing when and how to bring forward certain proposals, recommendations, ideas. Another thing is, especially for us, is finance and accounting, having the courage to say what needs to be said. Because often, we are the only one in the room that will have the courage to say what needs to be said.

Steve McNally: 22:43

And Mhmm. You know, maybe that comes to sometimes, you know, it's really easy to get caught up in the fun things at work and and maybe well, I guess the example that I think of the most, or at least one of the examples I think of the most when I was at Campbell's and we our sales organization, the mantra had been volume, volume, volume, which is great. But what happens if your volume actually isn't profitable? Or what happens if there's a mix of products and the part of the volume being pushed isn't the profitable part of that mix. So the new mantra and as part of pushing that out to our field sales organization was profitable volume.

Steve McNally: 23:32

And more important than just saying, oh, profitable volume, actually teaching the sales organization in a fun way what that looks like, helping them better understand the financial aspects of the sales decisions they were making. But, again, it's all about being courageous to really ensure the whole organization understands the realities and is making good decisions in the decisions they make. Then lastly, I'd say one of the overlooked qualities, having a positive can do attitude. You know, too often, as finance and accounting types are seen as, oh, they're the naysayers. They say no.

Steve McNally: 24:11

No. No. Well, sometimes you do need to say no, but often, it's really, hey. That's one option. But did you think of this?

Steve McNally: 24:22

Did you think of this? Did you think of this? Adding the financial analysis to the conversation and adding the alternatives. Because going back to being inquisitive and curious and offering new ideas and fresh thinking so that as an organization, we do go in the right direction, create economic value.

Adam Larson: 24:42

I like that instead of just being the the person who says no all the time. You're the person who says, that might not work, but can we try this in in giving solutions and being that true business partner as opposed to saying, well, the numbers say no. Sorry. And walking away, actually having a a strategic conversation and not just limiting yourself to just being the one who presents the numbers.

Steve McNally: 25:02

And even even you know? And and I know I said it the but, but even, hey. That's an idea. Now let's talk through it. Right?

Steve McNally: 25:11

So Yeah. So Yeah. On one level, financially, it might not work out for us, but how could we make it work if we tweak this, if we tweak that? So even that idea that was put forward, how could we make it work along with? And here's some other ideas, some other alternatives.

Steve McNally: 25:26

So you're right. Being a strategic business partner to help really push the conversation of of how do we grow the business in new and interesting ways.

Adam Larson: 25:38

Well, and that and that also continues to add on to that earning you continuously earn your seat at the table by being that business partner.

Steve McNally: 25:45

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Adam Larson: 25:48

So we we can't have this conversation about, you know, building our careers up and being better finance leaders without talking about staying relevant and having to add value because things are rapidly changing. We have AI. We have all these new technologies coming up. There's so many new things that the finance and accounting professional has to stay on top of. You know, how do you how do you continuously stay relevant?

Adam Larson: 26:07

It's it's it's not easy.

Steve McNally: 26:09

It's not easy. And, you know, it's easy to say, hey. We'll just keep, you know, keep your finger on the pulse. What are the trends? You know, read the articles.

Steve McNally: 26:18

Read, you know, participate in, for example, IMA sessions like this and, you know, the podcast and the webinars. That said, even if you do all of that, it also becomes information overload if you're not careful. But, you know, I take goes back to being inquisitive, being curious, being prioritizing where you focus your time and energy. I've also I forgot what the term is, but I've heard, you know, be very pointed in what you focus on. So if you happen to be considering a merger and acquisition, well, maybe be intentional in terms of learning all about mergers and acquisitions and how you conduct due diligence and what are the, you know, what are the kind of questions you should ask.

Steve McNally: 27:05

Or if you are facing tariffs, for example, well, maybe for the next week, you're really researching tariffs and what they mean and how you work with them and what are the alternatives to deal with them. So it's really I I think it's important to be inquisitive, to be curious, but also to, you know, focus on what makes the most sense at that moment in terms of what's the pressing issue for you. Maybe an example I'll put out. So during COVID, actually, I that's right. During COVID, I remember it was, I think, a Wednesday when we got sent home.

Steve McNally: 27:46

The world closed down. At least Ohio closed down. And it was that following Monday or Tuesday when something called the PPP, oh, and I'm gonna forget what it's for. Paycheck people paycheck protection. Paycheck protection plan.

Steve McNally: 28:03

PPP. Paycheck protection plan. So that week after the world shut down here in Ohio, there was talk about the PPP, the paycheck protection plan. Well, I spent literally the next day and a half learning about it, reaching out to banking friends who knew about it, figuring out how did you apply for it. If you, you know, if you were qualified, how did you apply?

Steve McNally: 28:28

And in the long run, we, my small business, we did apply. We were the ideal candidate for that particular funding. It kept us in business. It kept all of our people hired and engaged. And in the end, we're one of the first to submit the application for relief.

Steve McNally: 28:46

So in that moment, PPP was what our focus needed to be. So, yeah, there's a lot out there. It's a lot changing, and it's tough to keep on top of it. But, hopefully, we as finance and accounting professionals and as CFOs, hopefully, we're have a joy for knowledge, and we are inquisitive, and we just naturally learn what's going on, absorb it, and then focus where we need to focus.

Adam Larson: 29:12

I like that approach of, you know, knowing, hey. What is the what is the immediate need right now and what should I read on right now as opposed to, hey. Let me just take, you know, five or six random things and have all this knowledge but nothing to do with it. Because sometimes we can learn something and we might learn it for that day, but unless you're actually applying it and putting it into practice, it's just gonna go somewhere else and and being able to stay relevant. Because, know, as a, you know, you're a as a CMA or a CPA, you you need continuous education credits.

Adam Larson: 29:43

And can you continuous education is super important because you these certifications want to make sure you're staying relevant, staying on top of the topics that are important to finance and accounting professionals. But you also need to balance that with, well, what's happening in my organization? What do I need to know right now so that I can better help whatever's happening next? Like, you with the PPP loan.

Steve McNally: 30:02

And for me personally, it's actually a little of both. So, clearly, if there's a specific need, specific topic you wanna focus on that. On the other hand, I you know, and and maybe it's me. I just love learning. I love Yeah.

Steve McNally: 30:17

Yeah. Learning. And what it comes down to is you never know. So for sure, you participate in a session. You learn something that might not be totally relevant in that moment.

Steve McNally: 30:26

But, hopefully, you file it back here. And then in three months, in six months, in twelve months, when it does become relevant, you remember that, and you remember to go back to it. And, actually, sort of and this is gonna be a plug for the CMA and why dual certification is actually a good thing in my opinion. So, I'll get there. I'll get there.

Steve McNally: 30:48

So I'm a CPA. That's where I started, at PwC back in Philadelphia. I then moved into industry, into Campbell Soup. It was well into my career at Campbell Soup that I learned about IMA and the fact that there's this certification called the CMA. I didn't immediately go after it.

Steve McNally: 31:09

In fact, it wasn't until probably ten years after I was very active in IMA did I consider it. And I'll tell you, it was one of the best things in the world going for it because I just a body of knowledge so relevant to what I did day in and day out, what I do now as a small business CFO day in and day out. But the one thing I specifically remember within the study materials for the CMA, I learned about something called ZBB, zero based budgeting. Had never heard of it. Ironically, about three months after I took the CMA exam that I had studied ZBB, all of a sudden, Campbell Soup was rolling out ZBB.

Steve McNally: 31:53

Well, guess what? I became one of the internal experts on ZBB simply because I had just studied it three three, four months prior. So, again, yes, you need to focus on what's relevant today, but you never know what other topics that you learn about today will be relevant three, six, twelve months from now.

Adam Larson: 32:12

Definitely. I think that's that's amazing advice. Well, Steve, this has been an amazing conversation. I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast to chat, and I hope we can bring you back again. We'll talk about something else next time, and it's always a pleasure chatting with you.

Steve McNally: 32:25

Totally my honor. Thanks very much for having me. Look forward to the next time as well.

Announcer: 32:31

This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.