Adam Larson: 00:21

Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm Adam Larson, and today's episode is one you don't wanna miss. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Anne DeTraglia, chief auditor at Sabra Corporation. And let me tell you, she brings an infectious energy and a wealth of insightful stories to the table.

Adam Larson: 00:37

We talk about what it means to be a united leader and why collaboration is the driving force of her leadership style. Anne shares her refreshingly honest journey. From her early days as a first in her family to go to college, all the way to navigating a fast paced world of auditing, we dig into why feedback isn't just necessary, it's a gift, and how learning to give and receive it with trust and a little bit of tact can change the game for you and your team. So if you're ready to rethink your approach to leadership, embrace vulnerability, and build a culture where feedback helps everyone grow, you're in for some practical wisdom and plenty of laughs. So grab your headphones, and let's dive into this inspiring conversation.

Adam Larson: 01:22

Anne, thank you so much for being on Count Me, and I'm so excited to have you here. And when I met you in Phoenix, we talked a little bit about leadership, and I wanted to kinda continue that conversation. And I know you're you're very passionate, and you're very excited, and I I am so excited to be talking about you. And one of the things that you had mentioned to me was being a united leader, and I wanted to kind of ask you, what does that mean? Because when somebody hears that, they're probably like, I I don't get it.

Anne DeTraglia: 01:47

Yeah. Well, so the company I work for, Sabre Corporation, you know, like most organizations, we have values. And one of our values, and it's the value that resonates with me the most is being united. And it really speaks to collaborating, right, and working together toward a common goal. And that is for me, it speaks to my learning style.

Anne DeTraglia: 02:20

It speaks to how I like to achieve goals at work. You know, like, I I like getting together with people and working on things as a group. I don't generally like to go off on my own, although I I will do that. But I typically like to get in a room with people and brainstorm and think about how we can do things differently or how we're going to get after a certain initiative, how we're going to achieve a goal. So to me, like, being united is that.

Anne DeTraglia: 02:53

It's really around collaborating. Mhmm.

Adam Larson: 02:57

Well, because a lot of times when you talk about leadership, especially the higher up you go, the more lonely it gets. And so I like this idea of this united leadership where it's like, hey. I might be up here, but we're all in this together.

Anne DeTraglia: 03:10

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I'm gonna tell you. I found out today that a colleague, a friend of mine was laid off.

Anne DeTraglia: 03:22

And I said to my husband, you know, the higher up you go, the closer like, if you think of yourself as a tree, the higher up you go, the closer you are to that lightning strike. But, also, the higher up you go, the bigger your branches are, and the more more shade you provide for the people around you. Right? Like, if you think about I think about, like, the Amazon Rainforest. Right?

Anne DeTraglia: 03:51

Those big trees and the not just the shade that they provide, but that ecosystem. And if you take, you know, like, what's what's weighing heavy on my heart today because of my friend. And, you know, hey. It's business. I've been on the receiving end of a severance package three times.

Anne DeTraglia: 04:12

It happens. Right?

Adam Larson: 04:14

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 04:14

But if you take that, you know, what happened there and you continue on this metaphor, even those trees that, you know, fall, they're still part of the ecosystem, and they're still keeping, you know, things in the rainforest alive around them. Right? Like we are all parts of helping people on their journey. We're still part of that broader, leadership. I happen to say ecosystem again, but you know, that's what I mean by it.

Anne DeTraglia: 04:48

Right? Yeah, like you can look at things from that negative perspective, but you can also look at them from the perspective of, you know, the higher up you go, the lonelier it can be. But, also, you have to look at it from the perspective of the higher up you go, the more responsibility you have, and the more influence you have, and the more positivity you can bring to the people around you. And that's really important, I think.

Adam Larson: 05:16

Yeah. And then it just makes me think as somebody's advancing in their career and their branches are getting larger and they're creating more shade, that requires them to have more skills and new skills that they need to adopt. And how did you how did you approach that in your career as you were as you were going up the ranks, you had to kinda take new skills and suddenly you're a colleague, and next thing you know, you're that person's boss or you're it's a it's a weird dynamic as you're advancing in your career.

Anne DeTraglia: 05:39

Yeah. You know, it's funny. I never intended on becoming an auditor. It's like so here's how this all worked out. Like, I like, first in my family to go to college.

Anne DeTraglia: 05:56

Right? Didn't have any earthly idea what I wanted to do. I was pretty good at Spanish. So it was like, what do you wanna study? I'll study Spanish.

Anne DeTraglia: 06:10

You know? That's what I put down. So I started going down that path, and, I grew up in Chicago. So I went to Illinois State University. And Illinois State University, historically, is a teaching school.

Anne DeTraglia: 06:26

And I'm I'm gonna answer this question, but I'm gonna, like, take you on a journey with me. Alright. So ISU, Illinois State University, because I know there's a lot of ISUs out there. I've learned that from living all over this great country of ours.

Adam Larson: 06:39

Mhmm.

Anne DeTraglia: 06:40

And so IS big teaching school. Their motto is gladly what he learn and gladly teach. And in fact, ISU is in a town called Normal, Illinois. And for those who don't know this, normal schools back in the day were teaching schools, and that's how Normal, Illinois became known as Normal Illinois. It was because ISU was a normal school as a teaching school.

Anne DeTraglia: 07:05

Anyway, probably a lot of students from Illinois State didn't even know that. So now they know if they're listening to this podcast. So I'm at ISU, and, know, getting a degree in Spanish literature and linguistics. And I was like, I don't have any earthly idea what I'm gonna do with this degree. I'm just kind of like living my life getting a degree.

Anne DeTraglia: 07:26

Like life is sort of happening to me. I'm not sort of in control of where I'm going. Right? And getting good grades doing my thing and I have an adviser and I decide I don't really want to teach because I came from a family that struggled financially. Right?

Anne DeTraglia: 07:48

Like, we weren't in poverty, but we weren't necessarily not in poverty, if that makes sense. Right? And, I didn't want to live that way. And I knew that if I went into teaching, I wasn't necessarily gonna make a lot of money, and I wanted to make a lot of money. That was sort of my mission.

Anne DeTraglia: 08:10

So I decided I'm not not gonna go into the teaching program. And so I decided I was gonna get a master's degree, and it was going to be in linguistics. And I applied to a couple really good schools. One was the Monterey School of Linguistics, in California, and one was in Middlebury, Vermont. It was like, did you wanna ski, or did you wanna surf?

Anne DeTraglia: 08:33

I don't know. That's that's I got into both schools, both very good programs. And my college adviser sat me down, and she said to me, you need to get your MBA. I don't know what you're doing, but you need to get your MBA. You speak Spanish and a little bit of French.

Anne DeTraglia: 08:51

Let me tell you something, sister. There are a lot of people who speak a speak a lot of romance languages. You need to speak like Farsi. You need to speak Chinese, like Mandarin. Right?

Adam Larson: 09:05

Like Okay.

Anne DeTraglia: 09:06

You are not gonna be competitive in this field. Get ahold of yourself. Get it together, go get your MBA. And I thought, okay. First time in my life, anyone had given me some real practical advice and yeah, it was sort of a switch for me like you need to start stop letting life happen to you and you need to start getting into the driver's seat.

Anne DeTraglia: 09:34

So I ended up attending a really great program at a school in Arizona called Thunderbird the American Graduate School of International Management, which at the time was the number one International business school in the world. And so I can't even believe I got into school there, to tell you the truth. And so I got into the program, ended up getting my MBA. It was great. It was a life changing experience.

Anne DeTraglia: 10:01

Got out of there and got into a management training program. Still didn't really like know what I wanted to do. Just knew I had my MBA and I was gonna go do something in business.

Adam Larson: 10:13

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 10:13

So kind of in that like, well, what do I do with this business degree? And Arthur Anderson before they imploded before enron and all of that they had asked me to go and do the tax work for them in Argentina and I decided that wasn't for me. I knew that I definitely did not wanna get involved in taxes. Thank God for that. And I ended up in a management training program with a company that was not well known at the time, but was fast growing.

Anne DeTraglia: 10:46

And I knew about this company because I did a financial statement analysis class program where I tried to take over the company. This was like a thing that I did, and it was called The Home Depot. So, like, nobody in my family knew about The Home Depot at the time. They were really big in the Southeast and had started to expand a little bit. Think at the time on the West Coast, and they were expanding in the Northeast.

Anne DeTraglia: 11:12

And so the Home Depot said, you can get into this program and go wherever you want in the country. And at the time, I had this boyfriend who ultimately became my husband. He got a job in Jersey. And so I said, you got stores in Jersey. I'll go there.

Anne DeTraglia: 11:30

And I ended up opening up some stores in New Jersey. Learned a ton. Still didn't know, like, what is gonna happen when I graduate from this program.

Adam Larson: 11:41

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 11:41

And a guy came into the stores and was an auditor. And he was auditing the store. I had no idea what an auditor did. And he was going around doing all this auditing, and he was so smart. He knew how things were supposed to work.

Anne DeTraglia: 11:58

And so I kept following him around because, like, you know, I'm like a little management trainee, and so I have been rotating around the store learning things. But now this guy actually knew how things were supposed to work. And now this gets to the answer to your question. It was the first time in my life where it was like auditors know how things work. And I started to really hone in on, I wanna know how things work.

Anne DeTraglia: 12:28

And I became this guy's worst nightmare because I was like the shadow, and he was in the store only for two weeks. You know, this is like a typical, like, auditors back in the day. This is pre Sarbanes Oxley, you know, like, checklist kind of auditing and I just thought this guy's great. He was teaching everybody how to run the store properly because Home Depot was expanding so quickly. That was kind of the auditor's mission, you know, like they were there to audit, you know, for sure.

Anne DeTraglia: 12:58

Like if things were off the rails like they, you know, you were not going to get a great audit, you know, and you had to fix stuff like for sure. Was still the audit discipline, but they were also teaching you everybody in the store, like teaching you how to do things correctly. So they had an audit closing meeting, which is normal, and it happened to be that the head of audit who would attend, you know, a sample of look at me with my audit terminology still. They would go to a select number of audit closing meetings a year, and the head of audit, this guy Ken, he came to that particular closing meeting. And I was in the meeting, and and I was asking all these questions, and the auditor told this guy, this woman has not left me alone for the entire audit.

Anne DeTraglia: 13:48

She is, like, all over me, and he was really impressed. So he came to me, and he said, Hey, I have an opening in Boston, and this is no offense to anyone listening who is from New Jersey, but I did not like New Jersey. I did not wanna live there any longer. I had been there for two years. I had never been to Boston.

Anne DeTraglia: 14:10

I was a Chicago girl, and my ex husband who I was living well, he wasn't my ex husband then, but, you know, we were about to get married, and he didn't like New Jersey either, and he didn't like. He'd like it was funny. Anyway, I said, hey. Do you wanna move to Boston? And he said, yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 14:31

Let's go. And so we got up, got married, went on our honeymoon, and moved to Boston. And I became an auditor. And I started learning all these new skills, and auditing through the course of my career has taught me so many new things like I've learned all these new things about risk. I've learned about like fraud.

Anne DeTraglia: 14:59

I've learned all these new things about, like, just strategy and, like, how you do SWAT analysis. And I've learned all these new things about accounting that I never learned, you know, tax. I hate tax still, but I learned a lot of new things about tax that I went over to let. You know? Like, it's just all these new things.

Anne DeTraglia: 15:18

And so if it weren't for being an auditor, I don't know that I would have ever gotten into the roles I've been in and learned all these new things.

Adam Larson: 15:29

Interesting.

Anne DeTraglia: 15:30

So I tell people I've been an auditor for thirty years, but I can't tell you how many times I've been in an interview process where someone will say, I see you're interviewing to be, like, a chief auditor, but I see all you've done is risk management. And it's like, what? So, like, the risk management stuff, like, jumps off the page, but that is what chief auditor to do. So it's kind of funny how people will read things in their own different way. I know those are really long winded way of saying, I have always taken the opportunity to learn new things within the context of my role.

Anne DeTraglia: 16:17

And I think that's what anyone should do, whether you're an accountant or a finance professional, and not to let your role or your wherever you are in life, let it happen to you, but to go out and take those opportunities to learn new things.

Adam Larson: 16:37

Yeah. I think that's that's that's amazing advice. One thing that, you know, when you were saying that counselor sat you down and said, well, if you're not doing these things, then you shouldn't go this way. You should go this route. Like, that's a moment of feedback that not everybody's really ready to hear sometimes.

Adam Larson: 16:55

And so maybe we could talk because I know that feedback is really important to you, and you love giving good feedback and receiving feedback. And maybe we could talk a little bit about, like, you know, how has that played a bit of pivotal role for you, and then we can kinda go from there.

Anne DeTraglia: 17:08

Wow. So I love getting feedback, and I certainly love giving feedback too. And I think there's there's a couple directions here, but, like, I will tell you that I will ask for feedback frequently from my team, from peers, from my leader, and people have a hard time giving feedback because feedback has this, like, negative connotation. And I had a career coach who she has this perspective and she goes, look, feedback is just like, it's neutral. Feedback is just words.

Anne DeTraglia: 17:46

It is what you decide to do with the feedback that gives it power. And I'm gonna say that again. It is what you do with the feedback that gives it the power. Right? And people forget that.

Anne DeTraglia: 18:02

Too often, we take feedback and we get way too wrapped up in it and overanalyze it and get just too crazy around feedback that's given to us, right? Like, hey, and you were in that meeting and you know, you you know, you went on too long and, you know, you could have been more concise and, you know, like, I can walk away with that feedback and say, that person doesn't know what they're talking about and I needed to give that level of detail and they don't understand. Wow, wow, wow, wow, you know, and just be really defensive about it or I could walk away and say, there's a nugget of truth in there. It probably did go on a little bit longer than it needed to. Let me take that feedback away and think about the next time I go in to a meeting.

Anne DeTraglia: 19:02

Is there a way for me to be, a little bit more brief? Right? Can I have, you know, can I can I be brief? Be brilliant. Be gone.

Anne DeTraglia: 19:14

Right? Like, is there a way for me to take a negative truth from there and not have it be some personal attack? Right? Like, feedback doesn't have to be this terrible thing that happens to you. And so I'll tell you a couple stories here.

Anne DeTraglia: 19:33

I had the good fortune to have a gentleman who worked for me. I and I'm still very good friends with this person to this day, who ended up working for me. I had I was sort of at a point in my career where where I was, I was a little stuck. You know, it wasn't like I wasn't doing well. I was just not sort of progressing.

Anne DeTraglia: 20:02

Just kind of there. I was at that director level. So, you know, like how you you kind of move up and you finally become a manager. You're managing people. Yay.

Anne DeTraglia: 20:13

It's so great. And then you move into a director role. So you've got managers working for you who are managing people, and that is a very different element in your leadership journey. It's, you know, different way. It's a different form of leadership, right, than having a team of maybe three to six people that you're managing.

Anne DeTraglia: 20:38

That's typically how it starts for most people. And now you've got a couple, two, three managers that you're leading who are leading bodies of work. And I was kinda stuck in that director level for a long time. And I couldn't I just couldn't break out of that director role and move into a senior director or a managing director role in the various companies I was in. And this gentleman who worked for me started to give me upward feedback.

Anne DeTraglia: 21:14

And prior to that time, I did feel like feedback I was getting was a personal attack. Because prior to that, all the feedback I had ever received was and you're the greatest thing since sliced bread and you're walking on water and like you can do no wrong. Right? So if you've never received any kind of constructive feedback until that point, if you're getting any kind of constructive feedback, you're just gonna take it like it's a personal attack. Like, you don't know how to receive it and how to act on it appropriately.

Anne DeTraglia: 21:57

Right? And this gentleman worked for me, and he started to frame it up for me in such a way where it was really constructive, and I could receive it and act on it. And it didn't feel like it was a personal attack. It was stuff like, hey, Anne. When you do this, it impacts the team in this way, and then the work suffers because of this.

Anne DeTraglia: 22:31

Right? So he could draw, like, an action that I was doing. It wasn't like, hey, Anne, you're mean to the team, and so this happens. Right? It was it was based in facts.

Anne DeTraglia: 22:47

It was like, hey, Anne, when you do this, whatever it was, like, some something based in fact, like, you're showing up late to a meeting or you're not reviewing on time. You're doing this thing. Then this is the impact it has on the team. And then here's the impact it has on the work. And then all of a sudden, I started to realize, okay.

Anne DeTraglia: 23:14

I get what that feedback is now. Like, I get what I'm doing. I get how I'm showing up and and, like, what what that impact is and what's wrong there. And I also started to understand, up until that point, I was in this space of I have to know everything. I have to be the person who has all the knowledge and is telling everybody what to do all the time because that's like where I had been successful.

Anne DeTraglia: 23:47

Right? Like

Adam Larson: 23:49

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 23:49

As a as a independent contributor as a young manager, I was really successful because I was so smart. Like, remember I was telling you at Home Depot as an auditor. It was like the auditors know how everything works. They're telling everything, how everything works. They're the smartest people.

Anne DeTraglia: 24:09

They went out and taught everybody. I was like the source of knowledge. That was why I was so good. And then as I got further along, you just can't possibly know everything. And so it was becoming a detriment to me because I didn't know everything and I started to realize I had to depend on these managers.

Anne DeTraglia: 24:34

They knew things that I didn't know, and I had to depend on them. And it was a it was a turning point in my career because if it hadn't been for that manager giving me that feedback, like, we are here. We we have it. You have to trust us.

Adam Larson: 24:57

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 24:58

Because you are going to kill us with, like, you needing to know everything and direct everything. You're going to kill us. You're gonna put everything behind schedule, and we're never gonna get anything done. And it was it was a big turning point for me. And Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 25:14

It was finally then when I started to let go and I started to trust that like, ugh. Now the team's like set off and they were free. Now I will tell you, I am very much that manager today, and that sometimes stresses people out. Director who works for me today, she will say, Anne, you are a vision caster. And some people need a little bit more of a prescriptive approach.

Anne DeTraglia: 25:48

So you do have to find a balance. You do have to find a balance, but I am appreciative that she gives me that feedback. But like now, sometimes people do need a little bit more direction and a little bit more like, okay. I get it. You aren't gonna micromanage me, but maybe you could micromanage me a little.

Anne DeTraglia: 26:07

Sometimes sometimes there's that too, but I do think feedback just requires a lot of trust over time.

Adam Larson: 26:13

It really does because it it can make you uncomfortable depending how the person says it. Like, were saying, like, you're you're the gentleman you're working for or who was working for you, he presented it in a way that you could receive it. And a lot of times when somebody gives something to you, it does feel very accusatory, attacking, especially if everybody's saying, you're the greatest thing. You're awesome. And then suddenly, well, actually, this last week, you did this.

Adam Larson: 26:36

And you're like, me? How could I do such a thing? And it's like this this, like, dramatic your ego is hurt and and it's all down. So maybe we could talk a little bit, maybe some strategies that people can think about to kind of bridge that gap because you want like, we should be able to receive feedback, be able to give feedback. And you you've already talked a little bit about, like, ways to give good feedback, but how do we bridge that gap so that we're not so hurt when that first, like, negative, like, quote, unquote, negative?

Adam Larson: 27:02

Because it's not really negative. It's just something that we need to work on.

Anne DeTraglia: 27:05

Yeah. Like, it's the person receiving it or the person giving it?

Adam Larson: 27:08

Well, as the person like, maybe we could start with the person receiving it. Like, when you get that feedback and you're like, me? I could never. But then actually listening and saying, well, actually, there is some truth there.

Anne DeTraglia: 27:19

Yeah. I will tell you, my career coach, Leslie, she she'll say, just get over yourself. I mean, like, you know, she's she's very direct, but also compassionate. You know, there's always when someone is giving you feedback, and I know it's trite to say this, but it is true. Feedback is a gift.

Anne DeTraglia: 27:44

Like, if someone is coming to you and they're giving you feedback, they're not doing it to be mean. No. They're trying to help you. I mean, you have to, like, just root yourself in that, right? Like, root yourself in that.

Anne DeTraglia: 28:01

They're trying to help. I mean and if if you can't if you cannot believe that, you gotta do some soul searching. Like, seriously. Because no one is coming to you giving you feedback with, like, a dagger in their hand. That is not why they're doing it.

Anne DeTraglia: 28:19

Because truly if they didn't like you, they wouldn't bother. So you just gotta start with that premise. Like the reason why they're giving it to you is because they do care. They're trying to help. And then the next piece of it is, okay.

Anne DeTraglia: 28:39

There has to be something here within this feedback that, like, okay. What in here? There's something. There's a nugget in here that I can use. There's something I can act on.

Anne DeTraglia: 28:54

Right? I used to say there's three things that you can do with feedback. One is I can accept it and I can say I don't you know, this feedback has been given to me and I'm accepting it and I'm saying I want to act on this and address it. Right? Like what my colleague Andre did for me.

Anne DeTraglia: 29:17

The second one is I'm accepting this feedback to be true, and I don't really care. I'm not gonna really act on it, which you can do. I mean, it is an option. I don't think that that's wise. I think there is always something that you can act on in there.

Anne DeTraglia: 29:34

And then the third option is I don't believe this feedback to be true. I think this person is crazy. They're they're way off base, and so I say I'm not gonna act on it. And the reason why I say I don't usually dispense that advice anymore in terms of these are three things you can do with feedback is because my career coach has convinced me there is always something in feedback that you can act on.

Adam Larson: 30:00

Even if it's just a little bit of truth.

Anne DeTraglia: 30:03

Mhmm. Yeah. There is always something in there. You know? There you gotta find a little nugget in there that you can act on.

Adam Larson: 30:11

One thing you said that, earlier that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, people have a lot hard time giving feedback. How do you get how do we get better at giving feedback, especially in a in a constructive way? Because especially when there's, like, let's say a colleague comes to me and say, hey. You've been working with so and so, and I'm their manager. Can you just give me some, like, feedback and, like, on they're doing?

Adam Larson: 30:32

And your immediate reaction is, oh, I better give all the cool things they're doing as opposed to, well, here's some things that, like, constructive things they can work on because I don't wanna I don't wanna mess up that person's review. I don't wanna like there's all these other factors that come into vol before we give that feedback.

Anne DeTraglia: 30:48

Yeah. So I love a good framework. So the best framework for giving feedback, in my opinion, is to take a fact. This happened, and this is the impact, and you give it. Right?

Anne DeTraglia: 31:09

So I'll I'll tell you

Adam Larson: 31:11

That seems too simple.

Anne DeTraglia: 31:13

I know. I know. But it that is how you do it. Right? Like, so

Adam Larson: 31:17

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 31:18

I will tell you, you know, I'm the chief auditor, so I I report to the board. But, you know, administratively, I report to the CFO, and I give feedback to everybody. I do it all the time. And recently, well, recently, it was a few months ago. CFO, you know, had his leadership team meeting, which I'm a part of, and he was talking about a process for backfilling open slots.

Anne DeTraglia: 31:47

And everybody who walked away from that meeting believed that the process was gonna work in a certain way. And we went into the next leadership team meeting, and the process definitely wasn't working in the way any of us thought it was gonna work. I mean, like, during the meeting, we're all, like, DMing each other. Is that really what we all talked about? Because this is not what we all talked about.

Anne DeTraglia: 32:16

Right? I mean, we're all DMing each other. So do you think anybody on that leadership team was gonna go to the CFO and say, this process does not match what we talked about?

Adam Larson: 32:29

Probably not.

Anne DeTraglia: 32:31

No. And so I went to our HR partner who was also in the room and I said, I don't think that process was matching what we talked about. Do you agree? And she said, no, that's totally not matching what we talked about. Are you gonna talk to the CFO?

Anne DeTraglia: 32:43

Oh, no. I'm not talking to the CFO. Why is no one gonna talk to this? So I had a one on one with him. I don't know.

Anne DeTraglia: 32:51

Whatever. However, many days later. And so I said, hey, Mike. Two weeks ago, when we talked about the process, it was my understanding that it was gonna work this way. And he said, why would you think that?

Anne DeTraglia: 33:09

And I said, well, because that is how I understood it. And I will tell you, that is how several other people on the leadership team understood it as well because I asked several other people, and they said, yes. That's what I thought. And he was like, no, I would never do it that way. Blah blah blah blah blah.

Anne DeTraglia: 33:32

I said, okay. That's fine. That's fine. I'm telling you that we all understood it to be this way. So what I am saying is the way you presented it did not it was not received by everyone else in the way you intended.

Anne DeTraglia: 33:53

Yeah. So what you need to do is drive clarity at the next meeting so that we all better understand what your intention is because the way you presented it was received by us in a very different way. So he came in guns blazing at the next meeting. I don't know why everybody misunderstood. But at least we all had, an improved understanding, and it was fine.

Anne DeTraglia: 34:28

And he needed to hear that feedback that the way he had given the information was not well understood by anyone in that room. Right? Because without that clarity, everybody was walking around like the CFO is just changing the rules and that wasn't what happened. It was just a lack of clear communication, you know, like, just go have a conversation. I don't know why people don't want to have conversations with people.

Anne DeTraglia: 34:59

Like, it's just go have a conversation. It's not a big deal. The other thing I will say is, you know, we're having mid year performance conversations right now, and I will always ask my team. Give me some names of people who you've been working with who you think would have constructive feedback for you. And then, I will email those folks, and I will give them very specific questions.

Anne DeTraglia: 35:30

Not like, hey, what feedback do you have about Angela? What feedback do you have about Lucia? Like, I want them to give me, like, I will say, Hey, one of our values is being ambitious, And then I will give them very specific questions that relate to that value for that person within the context of the type of work that they're doing with that individual. So like I'm trying to drive to a certain level of detail around the feedback. Now, have I ever gotten any constructive feedback from someone?

Anne DeTraglia: 36:10

No. It's always like, oh my goodness. They're all that in a bag of chips, which is great. And I always give them, you know, my team will always get anonymized, you know, feedback as part of their performance review as sort of a supplementary appendix to their performance review because I think it's good for them to have that. But people really are terrible at being able to give any kind of constructive feedback to appear when they know it's gonna be anonymized.

Anne DeTraglia: 36:43

It's just ridiculous. They're just we do a very bad job at teaching people how to do this effectively, I think.

Adam Larson: 36:52

Yeah. And I I think it goes back like, I like I like that example you gave where you're saying that you give them, like, a here's a specific thing you can answer to help with that feedback. But I I agree. It's really it is still really difficult to get that even if you do the even if you have that exact, you know, that exact question, you know, giving us a constructive feedback thing. Because I don't know if it's we're just all not thinking in that way, or maybe that thing happened and it's in the past, and you're so far beyond it that you don't even remember what it is.

Anne DeTraglia: 37:24

Yeah. Well and also because, like, how many of us are, like, going through our day, and and I'm guilty of this as well, not being mindful Mhmm. Of what's happening.

Adam Larson: 37:40

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 37:40

Moment. Right? Like, thinking about like what have what have I been doing today? And who have I been engaging with today? And like what feedback would I have for those people?

Anne DeTraglia: 37:55

You know, we all forget like as soon as the day is over, like, what the heck happened today? You know? It's it's just hard to remember.

Adam Larson: 38:03

Is is that a way is because because sometimes, like, when when I've like, I remember I think back to different, like, performance reviews I've gotten, And, like, the only negative thing was that one negative thing that happened, like, a week ago because it was the most recent thing. Yeah. And, you know, like, or should we be should we be, like, keeping a record of things that we do when we work with people so that we can be ready for feedback at any time? Like, what are are other different methods that you do when you're trying to, like, remember the things that have happened throughout the year?

Anne DeTraglia: 38:29

Oh, yeah. I do that. I have I have two directories. One of them is in Outlook, and it's it's just called hiring performance and then it has subdirectories. So anytime something comes through positive negative neutral, whatever, but I get it's going to be worth mentioning for a colleague for a direct report, peer, whatever.

Anne DeTraglia: 38:55

I toss it into that file. Like, if it's an email or something like that, it'll just go into my Outlook directory. And then I have something on my local drive and things will go in there throughout the year and I keep stuff in there. And I'm always surprised that when it comes time for performance review time, I'll go back and look and I'm like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that thing, You know? So and then you just have, like, a catalog of stuff that's there, and I just have it at the ready.

Anne DeTraglia: 39:26

So that that's what I do. I keep things as a running tally of things that have gone on throughout the year that I I know I had wanted to remember about that person for that person and almost always, it's good stuff. We have a program at saver called say thanks. And so people will do a lot of say thanks for others. And so I can go into the dashboard and I can see who got say thanks and what was it for and and that's nice too to be able to go in and look, especially if, like, someone outside of our function was saying thanks to a member of the function.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:05

That's helpful.

Adam Larson: 40:06

Yeah. That's I mean, that's great because you've created that culture of that culture of kinda giving that feedback even because saying thanks is a form of feedback saying, thank you for the awesome work you that's a feedback to that person. And and creating that culture seems really important to let this be successful.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:22

Mhmm. Yeah. For sure.

Adam Larson: 40:25

So to give feedback and to receive feedback, there needs to be that kind of a level of vulnerability, which is difficult to have, especially when you have to have authority. You have to have accountability. There's all these other aspects you have to have. So how have you been able to balance those two?

Anne DeTraglia: 40:40

Authority and vulnerability?

Adam Larson: 40:43

Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:46

I'm not an engineer, so maybe I'm gonna screw this up. Is it the fulcrum that's in the middle of there?

Adam Larson: 40:52

Jeez.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:53

It's trust.

Adam Larson: 40:54

I should know that too. Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:55

I feel like trust is the fulcrum in between the

Adam Larson: 40:58

That sounds right.

Anne DeTraglia: 40:59

Yeah. Because you can look. Authority is like something that exists on an org chart. Right? Like, you can't take that with you.

Anne DeTraglia: 41:13

You know? But vulnerability is something, I think over time, people experience with you, and they know that you have it, or they know that you don't. Right? Like, people can see, I think, pretty quickly if you're guarded. People can see pretty quickly if you are disingenuous.

Anne DeTraglia: 41:44

People can see pretty quickly if you are, you know, just unethical not a not a yeah, you know, you're that kind of person. I think I think people know that they can they can sit out. And if you're if you are coming at people, and I've I've I've worked for someone like this, you know, who really overrevved overrevved. Sorry. On their positional power over me, over others, and really didn't have that personal influence to serve in the organization effectively.

Anne DeTraglia: 42:37

You know? Yeah. Like, they were Yeah. Interestingly, they were charismatic to a certain degree, but I can tell you right now, if they ever left the organization where they are, I don't know a whole heck of a lot of people who would stand up and fight for them. Right?

Anne DeTraglia: 42:54

Gotcha. You know what I mean? Yeah. Just

Adam Larson: 42:58

I've seen it.

Anne DeTraglia: 43:00

Yeah. Come on. Everybody listen to this podcast. They we all know somebody like that. We've all worked with somebody like that.

Anne DeTraglia: 43:08

Thankfully, you don't meet many people like that in your career. I you know, I haven't met many people like that in my career. Most people I work with are really good salt of the earth people. Back on wood. I don't know if that knock came through.

Anne DeTraglia: 43:27

These microphones, they filter out everything.

Adam Larson: 43:30

I did. I heard the knock, so we'll hear we'll we'll hopefully, the recording will hear the knock, but I I like that. This is like, I you've got my mind going so many different directions, Anne, and we can't talk for hours upon hours because that would just be a really long podcast.

Anne DeTraglia: 43:44

And I know.

Adam Larson: 43:45

We all we have other things to do. But I I really appreciate that, like, that that that, like, trust is the is the kind of the the linchpin in, like, vulnerability and authority because you you have to trust that, hey. In this moment, I'm I'm telling you what to do because this is what needs to happen. And then the next moment, hey. Thanks.

Adam Larson: 44:05

Like, I have this feedback or we have this this this vulnerable moment that those things can happen in the same day, and that's okay. And it's okay to kind of open yourself and let your ego go a little bit. Like, not saying that, like, put yourself down, but, hey. It's okay to kinda be open and be open for vulnerability, be open for feedback, and receive that with an open mind regardless of how the person says it. Because we could probably go on for another hour talking about the best ways to give feedback and how to do those things.

Adam Larson: 44:32

But regardless of how someone gives you back, you're gonna get feedback throughout your life. It's it's your choice to decide how you're gonna take it.

Anne DeTraglia: 44:39

Yeah. And, like, think about, like, how do you, like, get feedback in your home environment? How do you give feedback in your home environment? Right? Because some

Adam Larson: 44:52

of this

Anne DeTraglia: 44:52

is tied up with, like, emotional intelligence. Right? Like, how many of us we've all done it? We avoid having a difficult conversation, so we just don't have it. Like, that elephant is in the room, and we're all ignoring that elephant.

Anne DeTraglia: 45:16

We're just letting it sit there, hoping it'll go away. It's never gonna go away. Right? And that's just such low low low EQ. I mean, like, because you do have to just bring it up.

Anne DeTraglia: 45:33

Right? I mean, like the example that I was giving it was such a silly example with my CFO. Everybody would have just like let that go and we would have been like, alright, whatever the process is different. Would have been annoyed But to me, I felt like, well, no. Like, the CFO needs to know.

Anne DeTraglia: 45:57

Everybody is misaligned with what your intention was. You should know that. Like, let's all get on the same page here. Right? So I think that's just a gift that you give to someone.

Anne DeTraglia: 46:11

Right? Like, don't avoid having the conversation whether you're in the workplace or whether you're at home. The other thing is to, like, truthfulness. This is I forget who said this. So I apologize.

Anne DeTraglia: 46:24

I can't remember the like truthfulness without tact. That's yeah. I mean, truthfulness is feedback, but like be nice about it. Right?

Adam Larson: 46:41

Don't be mean.

Anne DeTraglia: 46:42

Right? Like, yeah, their baby's ugly, but you don't tell them. Hey, your baby's ugly. Like, you can be nice about it. Right?

Anne DeTraglia: 46:50

Like, you don't need to say it truthfulness without tact. That's low EQ. Like, so you gotta you gotta have some high EQ when you're delivering feedback. You you gotta say it in a way that it can be received effectively. So that that's important.

Anne DeTraglia: 47:09

We're not, like, we're not walking around trying to destroy people here. We're like, you gotta you gotta talk to people in a way that is mature. You want you don't want you don't wanna, like, destroy someone's life here. Right? Like, hey.

Anne DeTraglia: 47:29

I'm seeing I'll give you one last story. I have have someone on my team who, we put into a role that had never existed before. And this individual, I felt like they could do this. It was just gonna take them time. And we had mocked up a job description.

Anne DeTraglia: 47:49

And, you know, what do you think about the job description? Yep. Yep. Looks good. Looks good.

Anne DeTraglia: 47:54

And they just weren't getting it. They weren't getting it. They weren't getting it. I mean, we were, like, six months in, and I'm like, I just don't think this role is right for you. I don't think you're getting it.

Anne DeTraglia: 48:04

We kept going back and forth with feedback that it just wasn't landing, wasn't working. This person was frustrated. I was frustrated. Other people on the team were frustrated because this role was important. It was hitting, you know, not just me, but other people on the team.

Anne DeTraglia: 48:22

And I finally, after, like, six months of feedback and it just wasn't landing, I found a different way to give this person feedback where I I'm not joking. I used artificial intelligence. I ran the job description through AI and said, what does good look like for this job description? And it spat it out on the other end, and I gave it to the person. And I said, this is what good looks like, and this is what you're doing.

Anne DeTraglia: 48:57

And here's the difference. Right? And do you know that actually worked?

Adam Larson: 49:03

Okay. You gotta get creative.

Anne DeTraglia: 49:05

Right? And that that individual has has, you know, somewhat young children, like middle school age, and that individual is so funny. I was stressing with them. Look. Feedback is neutral.

Anne DeTraglia: 49:17

It's what you do with the feedback that matters. And that individual says that to their children, their middle school children all the time. Hey. The feedback is neutral. It's just what you're doing with it that matters.

Anne DeTraglia: 49:31

And and that individual is highly successful today in their role. So sometimes don't get frustrated with how you're delivering the feedback. Sometimes as a leader, you have to figure out a different way to deliver it. So that matters too.

Adam Larson: 49:46

That does matter too. And try out feedback you get with your kids and see how it goes, and that's a good one too.

Anne DeTraglia: 49:52

But, like, use each EQ.

Adam Larson: 49:54

Use some EQ. Yeah. Try it out, but with some EQ for sure.

Anne DeTraglia: 49:58

Truthfulness with tact. Yes. You can't say your baby's ugly. You gotta, like, be a little bit nicer about it. Yeah.

Anne DeTraglia: 50:06

For sure.

Adam Larson: 50:07

Yeah. Well, I hope that the listeners of this podcast have been as encouraged as I've been. I hope that folks try to lead with courage and give feedback with courage and not be afraid the way you've been describing. And I just really appreciate you coming on and chatting with me today, Ian.

Anne DeTraglia: 50:22

I love talking with you. This is so fun. Thank you for having me. It's great.

Announcer: 50:30

This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.