Adam Larson: 00:21

Hello, and welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, and today I'm excited to bring you a timely conversation with Steve Shaw, Executive Director of Permanent Placement Operations at Robert Half. In this episode, we're diving deep into the challenges and opportunities facing finance and accounting professionals in today's dynamic job market. Steve shares his insider perspective on navigating talent shortages, the increasing importance of soft skills, and how technology and AI are reshaping the roles across the industry. We'll talk strategies for employers looking to attract and retain top talent, why upskilling and reskilling matter more than ever, and how company culture and flexible work are influencing hiring trends.

Adam Larson: 01:01

No matter if you're leading department or taking the next step in your professional journey, this episode is full of valuable practical advice you can put to use right away. Let's dive right in. Well, Steve, we're so excited to have you on the podcast today. We've got a lot to cover and we'll be talking a lot about, you know, finance professionals in the job market and especially how it's trying to look competitive. There's a lot of things changing within that market.

Adam Larson: 01:29

And so I figured we could start off just by starting with some advice. You know, finance professionals looking to stand out, and especially in today's job market where there's not a lot of jobs and then there's a lot of openings and there's just a lot of things happening, a lot of moving parts going on in today's market.

Steve Saah: 01:44

Yeah. I mean, first of all, thanks for having me on today, Adam. It's great to chat with you. And I think as you started to allude to, without question, it's hard to avoid all the uncertainty that exists in the current market. And that's true for both companies that are trying to hire as well as potential employees that may be either actively or passively looking for new opportunities.

Steve Saah: 02:06

And so the result of it is that for employers, particularly in certain industries that might be more affected by everything that's going on in the world right now, it's unclear how, if, or when their company may be impacted and kind of how that translates into hiring decisions. And so the flip side of that is for really any given pool of top candidates that are qualified for the roles that companies are in fact trying to hire for. Many of those individuals, I think, just might be more reluctant to throw their hat in the ring and make a career move given all that uncertainty that does exist. On top of that, and I know you're familiar with this report, our Demand for Skilled Talent report, which you can find on our site at roberthalf.com. There's some clear signs that there's still an ongoing shortage of accountants, and that continues to be a major issue for everyone, from small and medium sized businesses to public accounting firms to large publicly traded corporations.

Steve Saah: 03:03

And so I think big picture, the talent gap that you've heard about is real. I think it's very well documented that fewer people are choosing to enter the accounting profession. The youngest baby boomers are starting to enter, believe it or not, their 60s this year, meaning large volumes of them are kind of inching up on retirement. In addition, we just see more people looking at roles other than traditional accounting positions, often for what they perceive to be better compensation, better benefit packages, better work life balance, more flexibility in their schedules, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So it's a real struggle to find top talent in today's market.

Steve Saah: 03:41

And to address this shortage, we're just seeing more and more companies starting to look at things like upskilling and reskilling their current employees in key areas. Some are even bringing back recently retired professionals as consultants, which gives them a lot of in-depth experience and really the staffing flexibility for when and where they need additional support as well. And then in our salary guide, we have some stats around all of this, and the one thing that really stands out to me is the fact that 51% of finance and accounting managers say hiring quickly enough to land top talent is one of their top recruiting challenges. So yeah, to get back to your original point, it's a very, very challenging and tricky dynamic right now.

Adam Larson: 04:24

Yeah, it really is. And I just wanted to say for the audience, please click the links in the show notes so you can see the links to the reports that Steve is referring to if you want to look at those in more detail before listening to the rest of the conversation. So, you know, are there ways that companies can benchmark some of the skills they need to make sure that they're getting the right candidates in the right place? But also, you mentioned upskilling, so I guess it's a twofold question. Like, how can we better make sure we have the right skills for when we're hiring new people, but how do we keep our current people in the right spot?

Steve Saah: 04:53

Yeah, it's a tricky dynamic again, and as I mentioned, that skills gap is a very significant challenge that can be frustrating at times. And so I think in a lot of cases, it's probably pretty easy for organizations and individual hiring managers to kind of write out the technical skills needed for a given role. But I think many would also agree that often the differentiating factor in assessing potential is really more things like the soft skills. So I'd really encourage hiring managers to focus on more of those. My advice for kind of digging deeper is to kind of throw out open ended and hypothetical questions into the mix when talking to prospective candidates.

Steve Saah: 05:31

I just think it gives you a better sense of how they tackle challenges and solve problems on the spot. So maybe if I could just share a few examples. To me, it's things such as, like, how has your team made a decision and, you know, you're the only one who might disagree with it? So what's your game plan? I think that's a great way to assess a person's approach on teamwork.

Steve Saah: 05:52

For something like adaptability or problem solving, you could say to a candidate, let's say, for example, you're in the middle of a project and suddenly the goals shift drastically. How would you deal with that situation? For leadership skills, maybe ask a question along the lines of, If you notice a decline in employee morale, what would you do to improve things? And then for something like thought leadership, or certainly there's a lot of conversation, I'm sure we'll get into it around technology. So your manager asks you to draft some guidelines for how you and your team can utilize AI when assessing client deliverables.

Steve Saah: 06:28

What factors would you consider and how would you kind of approach creating those guidelines? So when you're having those types of conversations and dialoguing with a person, you should really be looking for nonverbal cues in their demeanor, eye contact, how they're thinking about these types of questions, their confidence levels, and in general, just how they engage with you throughout the conversation. But to me, all of these things are probably a much better litmus test of one's potential, both for success and their current role, as well as down the road versus just kind of focusing on the technical skills required to do the immediate job at hand.

Adam Larson: 07:04

I like that approach, Steve, because it's like we have all these new tools that can look at somebody's resume and analyze all the words that are used, but nothing can replace the fact of actually sitting down and having a conversation, looking at their reactions and looking at all those things. And that's something that I feel like kind of gets lost with the speed that the AI and the technologies are giving us.

Steve Saah: 07:24

Sure. It's a very good point, Adam.

Adam Larson: 07:26

So when we look at like high demand talent, you know, if you know, because you're saying that there's a lot of there's not as many there's not as many candidates for for for roles. But if you're trying to attract top accounting and finance professionals to your team, you know, how do you what are some strategies that employers can use to kinda grab those people and bring them in?

Steve Saah: 07:44

Sure. Well, I'd start by saying maybe just from a big picture perspective, to me, the most important thing is knowing your audience, knowing your market, and knowing your competition. Meaning, do you know the types of candidates that you're trying to attract and what's generally appealing to them? What are the general trends in your market that are attractive to prospective candidates? And what are competitors doing to attract and retain the same candidates that you're looking for?

Steve Saah: 08:13

After that, and I want to nor mean to contradict myself, but I also think it's really critical to step back and remember that each person is very different, and most likely what influences their job satisfaction, what they're looking for, and what motivates them is very, very different than the next person. Meaning that we all have to understand and appreciate that each person is a unique individual with unique needs and desires. And to me, organizations that understand this and can adapt to each person's circumstances are going to, without question, just generally do better at attracting, successfully hiring, and in my mind, most importantly of all, retaining top talent. You mentioned some of the reports that we have. I think a great one is our multi generational report as we dive deep into the subject.

Steve Saah: 09:05

But big picture, you can't just put people into broad buckets because they were born in a certain year or part of generation X, for example. Likewise, you can't just treat all accountants the same way. To me, there's a saying that I love and it's one size fits one. And you have to have individual conversations and take into consideration what's important to that one unique person and their individual circumstances.

Adam Larson: 09:29

Yeah, that's hugely important. So what are things like, you know, compensation and benefit? How does that cater into those conversations?

Steve Saah: 09:36

Well, as long as I've been doing this, Adam, which now is over twenty five years, I'd say comp and benefits are always right at or very, very near the top of the list for most people and probably always will be. So I think by and large, that's a given. But what I'd also say, and I think it's probably fair that it applies to everyone, including the two of us, I'm guessing. Like everybody would like to make more money, but that's not often the fundamental reason why a person is or isn't satisfied. When talk to people throughout the country, kind of what I consistently hear in today's world, it's things such as flexible work arrangements, the ability to learn and work with emerging technologies, particularly with all things related to AI, the ability to grow and continually advance their careers, who they get to work with day in and day out in the culture of an organization.

Steve Saah: 10:29

Those are the things that the majority of people are most focused on. So I'd kind of go back to maybe what I mentioned earlier, Adam, and that's simply that what's important to me may be very different than what's important to you and others. And knowing and appreciating that is really gonna help everyone make better employment and career decisions that will lead to kind of on the front end, attracting the right people for your organization, and again, most importantly, retaining them on the back end. You know, I know I mentioned it several times, but I can't stress it enough. It's those kind of unique individualized conversations where you'll discover what truly motivates your employees and enables you to learn kind of how to maximize their potential throughout the course of their career.

Adam Larson: 11:12

And when it comes to retaining employees, you mentioned that it's more than just compensation. There's other factors that are involved, and I can imagine that stuff like company culture is a huge part of that. Can we talk a little bit about the importance of making sure that your company culture is in way that's inviting and can include those new employees as you're bringing them in?

Steve Saah: 11:30

Sure. Well, I mean, culture is absolutely critical. I think you have to vet that out on the front end when talking to people to make sure that it's gonna be a good fit. And so oftentimes, particularly in job descriptions when we start writing those, you tend to focus on the technical skills that are required to do the job, but then you have to make sure that that person is gonna be a long term fit, both within the team and the organization. The other thing that kind of comes into it is there's just a lot of other factors that people are taking into consideration today.

Steve Saah: 12:06

I know you're probably gonna ask a question at some point about hybrid and remote work opportunities because that's just on the top of everyone's mind and it's just really an ever shifting dynamic. So again, it goes, to me, it goes back to those individual conversations that allow you to vet out what's most important to an individual person and how they're gonna fit in with your organization.

Adam Larson: 12:29

Yeah, well, and let's talk about hybrid remote work environments because when COVID happened, you suddenly realize, hey, the accounting and finance team doesn't necessarily need to be in the same room. We can use these new technologies and do things in a way that we can come together. How do you think that's impacted the hiring process, especially for accounting and finance roles? Because, you know, some people have moved back to total in person, other people are just a hybrid kind of thing, so it's a shifting environment for sure.

Steve Saah: 12:54

Well, as I mentioned, it's hard to have this conversation without talking about hybrid, remote, and office. And so I figured it was coming up at some point. Look, think it's a moving target. It's a continual evolution, and that's going to just most likely continue to ebb and flow for the foreseeable future. On the one hand, you have a fair number of notable companies that have kind of started to implement these return to the office policies where they cite the need for people to connect more with one another, collaborate and learn together, help maintain that corporate culture to go back to your previous question, right?

Steve Saah: 13:28

And I think it's generally fair to say that more companies are starting to require more people to come into the office a bit more often. That's not necessarily nine to five or five days a week, but again, I think it's fair to say more companies are looking to have more people come into the office a bit more often. On the other hand though, I don't think the majority of people wanna be wedded to a strict schedule whereby they need to be in the office every day or even on a rigid schedule. People now want autonomy, they want flexibility, and it's not just limited to where people work, but frankly, when they work as well. So concepts such as, you know, flexible schedules, windowed work, that's all part of the conversation and probably will be for So quite some to me, employers need to both recognize that at least for accounting and financial roles, there's still a very competitive labor market with the unemployment rate often being as low as one to 2% for any given role in most markets around the country.

Steve Saah: 14:33

So you have to recognize that people do have a lot of choices on where they work. And again, that's especially true in accounting and finance. That dynamic is gonna continue to ebb and flow as each organization and person needs to kind of find the right balance between those extremes. But without question, when you offer remote roles, hybrid roles, flexible windowed work schedules, that also opens up the pool of talent that you have access to, which can certainly help you find the right person for the long run. So it's an interesting dynamic and I think one that we're going to see again, kind of ebb and flow for the foreseeable future.

Adam Larson: 15:10

Yeah, especially as, you know, different industries make different decisions and the trends are continue to go up and down depending where you are. So it definitely be interesting to watch. So when we think about, you know, you mentioned technology, technology is something that plays a huge role in hiring a huge role in how we run our organizations. You know, what role do you see kind of technology and especially things like data analytics playing in the future of hiring, especially accounting and finance professionals? It's definitely a changing trend.

Steve Saah: 15:39

Well, as you said, I mean, there's no question that the industry is trending towards, more and more use of data analytics and technology. I mentioned it earlier to me, particularly all things AI related. And I think what we're seeing in the market is that while there's a lot of projects like digital transformation, things that are really ramping up, The challenge is again around finding qualified candidates quickly enough, and then when you do, successfully landing them is also tricky, as many times they have competing offers. So, you know, as I talk to our teams across the country, I think clearly some of the more in demand technical skills are in areas such as ERP systems. Cybersecurity is another hot one.

Steve Saah: 16:21

I mentioned a moment ago, digital transformation. Again, not to be repetitive, but certainly any and everything related to AI, right? Even so much so that speaking of AI, we're starting to see some new functional roles kind of appearing in the market. So I don't know if you've seen these titles, Adam, but things like AI Financial Analysts, AI Auditors, AI Compliance Analysts. And these are all newly developing roles where companies are looking for folks that can use the AI to help with data analytics and really help organizations make better informed decisions.

Steve Saah: 16:57

So overall, I think all of this leads to an incredibly exciting time to be in the accounting and finance space. While again, it's ever evolving, there's no question that these trends towards the use of technology are going to continue.

Adam Larson: 17:09

So do you think this is going to attract people who are not traditional accountants, people who didn't come up through the big four and did their CPA and did the big four and then moving over? Because it seems like that with these new types of roles, don't necessarily have to have a traditional accounting background.

Steve Saah: 17:23

Yeah, I think there's actually is becoming a very blurred line between, as you said, the traditional accounting, the traditional finance jobs and technology jobs. And so I think people that have a hybrid background between those two are really setting themselves up for long term success. There's going to continue to be more and more demand for people that can bridge that gap between the two.

Adam Larson: 17:49

Yeah, and I think it'll be a good way to kind of bridge between the different teams as well. Because if you have, you have your finance team and then you have your IT team and they don't necessarily mesh unless they're like, hey, we need to do our ERP system and then suddenly everybody gets involved. But I think it'll be more a day to day thing where it'll be a nice bridge, like you said. And I think that's a real win for the organization.

Steve Saah: 18:10

Yeah. You see that a lot in organizational structures too as more IT technology teams are reporting up through the CFO function, right? And so I think your point is spot on with that, Adam.

Adam Larson: 18:23

Yeah, and I yeah, it seems to seems to flow better and work better from an organizational standpoint and the finance team, the CFO needs to understand what's happening with the technology because they're making sure it's getting taken paid for. And so I think that there's a good connection there. It makes sense.

Steve Saah: 18:39

Without question.

Adam Larson: 18:41

Yeah. So when we think about continuous upskilling, we've mentioned a lot of different things throughout this conversation about what the teams need to do to prepare themselves. Maybe we could talk like specifically, what are some good upskilling? What are ways that they can especially employers can support their teams when I'm trying to upskill and especially with all the changes that are happening?

Steve Saah: 19:01

Sure. Well, I think upskilling and reskilling kind of go hand in hand. I think they can both be great ways to kind of make your existing workforce not only better at their jobs, but it provides them with frankly a lot more career satisfaction, and that leads organizations retaining all that institutional knowledge that goes hand in hand with a great retention strategy. I do think it's maybe important for your audience to kind of call out the difference between upskilling and reskilling, because to me, they're both really important and can be utilized in somewhat similar but subtly different ways as well. And so upskilling really involves expanding an employee's skillset so that they can advance along their current career path.

Steve Saah: 19:48

So as job requirements evolve, as technology evolves, I think upskilling allows your current employees to just gain more and more new abilities and contribute more in their current roles and stay relevant. Reskilling is where you're teaching existing employees completely new skills so that they can move into different roles within the organization. And so this allows very, very talented workers with limited growth opportunities in their current jobs to reposition themselves in the organization. And so what that does for the organization is it gives your business the ability to retain those valued team members who have already proven themselves in previous roles, but then move into something completely different. And so to me, in order to kind of have a really positive net impact on your entire workforce, those programs, both upskilling and reskilling, need to be tailored to your specific business needs.

Steve Saah: 20:47

So to me, the first step is to step back and analyze your business strategy, identify where those skills gaps exist to really kind of meet both short term, medium, and longer term objectives. And so once you've done that, and a lot of times when you're going through that skills gap assessment, I think the technical skills are usually the first things to spring to mind. But going back to something we talked about a few moments ago, don't forget about soft skills such as adaptability, problem solving, communication. And so when you know where those skills gaps are, you can then choose from a wide range of tools to kind of help shape that training program. So those could be things like mentoring programs, job shadowing, online learning, attending network events and conferences, etcetera.

Steve Saah: 21:37

I mean, to me, all those types of things help people continually evolve and just develop their skill sets for the future.

Adam Larson: 21:43

So what would you say to a leader who is having trouble finding the time for his team to reskill or upskill? It seems like that with a lot of organizations tighten their belts, they, you know, they've been restructuring. There's a lot of restructuring, which I'm sure the reskilling plays into a part of that. But they say, Hey, my team is understaffed. We don't have time to upskill.

Adam Larson: 22:00

What would your advice be to them to try to find that time? Because it is important.

Steve Saah: 22:05

Invest the time, right? You can find the time if you place the priorities on it. But to your point, you know, too often times you're focused on the here and now and the job and the tasks and everything that's in front of you. But if you don't invest your time and your people today, the reality of it is there are other organizations out there that are going to look to bring those folks on board to their teams, And that creates opportunities for people. So if the opportunity is not within the four walls of your organization and individuals on your teams don't feel as though they can progress their career, that there's not an opportunity down the road for them, they're going to find it elsewhere.

Steve Saah: 22:46

And so ultimately I think you need to step back and evaluate and ask yourself, is it better to retain that institutional knowledge and develop people that have been with us for X number of years versus having to go out and hire from the outside? And I think that there's pros and cons to both as always, but I think most people would agree, especially as individuals start to get more and more tenure under their belts within an organization, that that institutional knowledge, experience, the relationships, the knowledge of the business that people have, that's one of the hardest things to get. And so by investing in people and finding that time today, you can make sure that your retention is at the levels that you really want it to be.

Adam Larson: 23:26

Yeah, it seems like a more of a depending on what your organization needs and wants are is how you would handle that situation, basically. And I suppose that it's, like you said, you're going to invest the time that, you know, if it's really important, you're going to invest that time. And I think it comes back to, you know, leadership and structuring how your organization is run. Because if everybody feels like they don't have time for anything, well, maybe there's a better way to do what you're doing to make sure that they feel like they have that time.

Steve Saah: 23:53

Absolutely. That's a good point.

Adam Larson: 23:55

So Steve, we've been talking a lot about from the employer's perspective. So what if you're listening to this podcast and you're a candidate? What are ways that you can help stand out? Because, you know, you want to stand out, you want to get yourself seen, you want to get yourself in front of the hiring manager so you can have that conversation that we've been talking about.

Steve Saah: 24:10

Yeah. I mean, think as we were talking about a moment ago with everything that's evolving, the use of technology and so forth, there's no question, it's a great time to be in the accounting and finance field. Again, I mean, I think there's high demand in the market, Unemployment rates for accountants and financial professionals are near historic lows. There's a lot of skills gaps that need to be filled. So all of it bodes well for someone who's looking for a new role.

Steve Saah: 24:38

In general, I think when you're thinking about how to stand out, I'd recommend by just starting to do an honest assessment of your marketability. What are your biggest strengths? What do you need to improve upon in order to position yourself as the best candidate out there? That takes some time and effort. But again, I think it's paramount to your success to kind of put and keep your career top of mind.

Steve Saah: 24:59

So speak with your mentors, get their perspectives, focus on developing more of your soft skills, as we had talked about previously, and then be sure and utilize the power of networking and social media, particularly LinkedIn. So if you think about what's a hiring manager's initial impression of you when they look at your profile, because trust me, they will. Are you using a high quality photo of yourself? Are you well connected to other people within your field? Are you posting on LinkedIn with some degree of regularity showing kind of both what you're involved in professionally as well as personally throughout the community?

Steve Saah: 25:34

The other big one that a lot of people tend to forget about is have you recently updated your resume so that if and when, right? If the right opportunity comes up, when the right opportunity presents itself, are you ready to go? And one tip around that though is I'd highly recommend, highly, highly recommend not using the same resume for every role. Tailor it to the specific position, the specific company, the specific industry to which you're applying and highlight the things that that organization is focused on. As I like to say, you kind of, you want to make sure that you're applying for the job and the position that you're applying for.

Steve Saah: 26:13

Invest the time, do that upfront, and it just makes a huge difference. Those little tweaks can really set you apart.

Adam Larson: 26:19

So essentially you'll have multiple copies of your resume with wordsmithing depending on the role you're giving in, Correct. Basically,

Steve Saah: 26:26

Big picture, it's all the same, but there's little tweaks that tailor it to that specific role at that specific organization in that specific industry is going make a difference. It really will.

Adam Larson: 26:37

So where would somebody look to say, Hey, I want to make sure I have the right wording on my resume. Are there services out there? Are there websites they can go to to say, Hey, these are the best types of words to use within your descriptions and stuff like that?

Steve Saah: 26:49

Well, I mean, think probably the one that most people would gravitate towards today would be ChatGPT. It's really easy to kind of put your resume in there and ask it simply, how does this line up with the job description and the company? But I think just being, again, kind of intellectually honest with yourself and going almost bullet point by bullet point through the description, as well as your resume, and asking yourself how many parallels are there between the two? What are the things that you can highlight that you've done in your career that this employer has tended to focus on in their job description, that are relevant to them, that are in alignment with the technology and the software that they use. It's a pretty straightforward exercise.

Steve Saah: 27:35

My point is, oftentimes, particularly with the way people can apply today by going online and just click, click, click, click and apply to three or four jobs that fast, that's not what you want to do. You want to make sure that you take a few moments, step back, and again, see how closely your background experience will align with what it is that they're looking for.

Adam Larson: 27:56

No, that's good advice. Thanks. Thanks, Steve. So, you know, as we kind of we've talked about a lot of things, but I can't help we can't help but address, you know, the elephant in the room right now, you know, especially in The U. S, you know, with the changing of the president and everything that's happening and the economic climate is shifting.

Adam Larson: 28:13

There's a lot of uncertainty everywhere and it's shifting the way like people are looking at The US, the way, you know, organizations are working with The US. You know, how is that going to impact the hiring trends for accounting and finance professionals?

Steve Saah: 28:25

Well, I think we've touched on this as we kind of started the conversation, Adam, but maybe it's a good way to wrap up and just kind of bring it full circle. There's no question that there's a great deal of uncertainty given the current climate. That said, as I've mentioned, you know, kind of along the way throughout the conversation, there's also no question that there's still hiring to be done for critical roles. And I think those with the most in demand skill sets are going to have a number of opportunities to choose from. We kind of see that day in and day out with candidates that we're working with as they often have multiple offers, and then they're actually getting counteroffered by their current employer when giving notice.

Steve Saah: 29:01

So I think big picture, this tricky dynamic is going to continue for a bit longer. But in a recent survey we did, about 65% of the hiring managers that we surveyed indicated that they were hiring for new roles, while just over 30% indicated that they were only hiring for recently vacated roles, meaning there's still a lot of net hiring to be done specifically in accounting and finance. However, out of that whole population, 93% of them reported challenges in just finding skilled talent right now. So to me, kind of the net net of it all is that while to your point, and again, I wholeheartedly agree, there is a lot of uncertainty. There's still hiring that needs to be done.

Steve Saah: 29:46

I think individuals in accounting and finance still have a lot of opportunities to choose from. There's a lot of exciting things happening in the accounting and financial world right now, and that's going to continue for quite some time. So it's a good place to be.

Adam Larson: 29:59

It is a good place to be. Well, Steve, I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule to speak with us and sharing your expertise with our audience today.

Steve Saah: 30:06

Yeah. It's always great being on with you, Adam.

Announcer: 30:10

This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast, providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.