Ep. 305: Ben Cena - Moving Big Ideas Toward Real-World Impact
Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson. And today, I'm chatting with Ben Cena, cofounder and High Value Author. Ben's not your typical publishing expert. He started out hating books and ended up building and selling a successful publishing business.
Adam Larson:In this episode, Ben shares why non fiction books can be powerful tools for personal branding and business growth and what separates few successful authors from many who struggle. If you've ever wondered how to turn your expertise into high value book or what it really takes to become a recognized thought leader, you won't want to miss Ben's practical advice and insider insights. Let's get started. Well, Ben, I just want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Excited to talk to you, to talk to you about folks becoming thought leaders and authors.
Adam Larson:And I wanted to get started just by asking what kind of inspired you to start helping professionals become thought leaders? And maybe you could tell a little bit about your story.
Ben Cena:Sure. You know, well, first of all, I hate books. I hate I hated books, not hate books. I hated books when I was in in school and college, you know. And I think no.
Ben Cena:It probably was by accident. You know? I was a personal trainer in my past life. I was you know, I'm still as passionate about health as I was. Maybe I'm gonna do that in another ten years.
Ben Cena:But now my colleague in the gym I was working, he was involved in publishing space. So he said he's doing this, you know, and it kinda like made me curious. So we we developed a couple of publishing businesses. We sold them for 6 figure sums, you know, back in 2018, '19, which is what really was self published, everything. You know?
Ben Cena:So I think this was the start, and we really saw the trend on Amazon and how the books and how different solutions you know? We just really discovered that because I always thought that books are, you know, the fiction stuff, you know, the boring stuff nobody likes to read. This is what I what we were told in school, in college, and all these kind of things. Later on, I figured out that books are problem solving tools, and that's what really hooked me in. And then later, after selling those couple of businesses on Amazon, we figured that people are really struggling with understanding what is the purpose of a book.
Ben Cena:The experts, authority, all these kind of things and the alignment and how people are having completely different conversations with clients, investors, yada yada. If you know how to use a book and you know how to create this masterpiece of a tool. So I think really understanding that, probably what happened about five years ago in 2019, '20 '20, that's where the real shift happened. We realized there are so much untapped potential for so many experts out there. Listen, there are 65 plus million books on Amazon, Barnes and Noble.
Ben Cena:Less than a hundred thousand books sell more than one copy a day. Less than a hundred thousand books. Most books die after all the uncles and aunts buy them, right, in the first two weeks after the launch. Right? And then nobody cares.
Ben Cena:And I think this is where it really started with, okay. No, if you're really solving problems with those books, they should last year, not just, you know, some nice little project which never came to fruition. That was my long winded answer.
Adam Larson:Yeah. No, no, no. It's interesting hearing you say that, especially about the numbers when it comes to books, how, you know, most of them just kind of, you know, all the aunts and uncles buy them, you know, a little hoopla and then it just goes to die. You know, knowing all that, why would somebody say, Hey, I want to now become an author? This is like a non fiction book for business.
Adam Larson:Like, why would somebody want to become an author knowing that this is like the market for books right now?
Ben Cena:Well, it really depends what we really seen most for the most part for the main reason, right, which really people don't really share. They don't really say that reason off the bat, but they're saying, okay, want to spread the message. Now after a deeper conversation, we really figure that there are kinda like two main reasons. Like I said, one is there were really two main reasons. First, they want to take their personal brand and their name to a different level.
Ben Cena:Now what does that mean? In most cases, that means I am in that world. And silly enough, that means I am smart. I am in a book world. I am smart.
Ben Cena:This is no. I'll give you some more numbers that might make you think. Year over year I I will not give you the exact number here, but physical book sales and ebook sales are growing every single year without exception since probably 02/2005. The readership of those books are declining on average about 7% every year from a total readership percentage. What does that mean?
Ben Cena:People are buying books, not really reading books, but they want to shelf them, show them in the background, on Zoom, you know, all these kind of things. Now why people want to become authors is to be one of those, you know, in that shelf, to be perceived as the smart people, as people of intellect in that space. Right? That's the first one. And the second one, after a bit more thinking, they realize that that is a great way to create conversations, create high ticket lead generation in current terms, and really bring in money, bring in real now talking to investors, talking to potential clients about big projects.
Ben Cena:If you know how to use a book for that and the positioning is right, it happens a lot if you know what you're doing.
Adam Larson:Yeah. Now, are there any success stories that you can share of people you've worked with? Obviously, you don't have to mention any names, but are there any stories of folks who gave this a shot and worked with you and were able to see great success in growing their business with it?
Ben Cena:Yeah, sure. So one of the people that we worked with and still working with, he's lived in Dubai and really tracked data on that, where we managed to scale. He's in education business, online education. He's selling products, building relationships with people. And he really we really managed to use this tool to educate people on what he's doing and move people to his program, which is between 5,000 and $9,000 for the most part.
Ben Cena:Right? And I think I'll not give you the exact number, but it's between 2,000 and $3,000 which he collected in a span of about eight months after the launch of a book directly from a book, which we managed to count from the pathway that was created, not even counting people who read it and then came back later, these kinds of things. So it was probably more of a specific kind of vague story where it really works and it's really more measurable. The other thing we also did with one of our clients is after the launch, we were scheduled for a conference where we wanted to position a book, and I think there was 100 seats, Right? And we decided to gift every person, every manager, which was for managers.
Ben Cena:He's in a space of talent acquisition in corporate environment. So for him, it's more about opening conversations with building relationships. Right? And what we did, we decided to go after the strategy, like a more physical strategy, and planned hundred books for those hundred people and create a presentation in a way to use that book as a leverage so when people can book a call with, that person during a conference for every single person who have a book. And I think we had like 50 calls booked from those hundred people.
Ben Cena:Right? So I think this is more a more juicy, to the point examples of if you know how to use it right and you're really going after it, you can really no. One conversation changes everything. One conversation can give you a return on the investment or time spent on a project like this. Of course, most people don't do it.
Ben Cena:It takes either work or working with some team who knows what they are doing, but, you know, you you you have to know why you're doing this. What do you want this book to do? This is one of the main questions I ask on the on the initial call that I have with people. What what what are you trying to achieve with with your book? And usually, we we don't really have a strong reason.
Ben Cena:And I'm really pleased to talk to some people sometimes where they say, okay. The reason why I want this book is because I want to build my personal brand, and I want to create a bridge and create this networking opportunity with this kind of clients. I love that answer. That this means this person knows knows what he's talking about. And usually, these are higher level people who really understand that kind of language, that kind of possibility.
Ben Cena:Right? So for anybody listening, you know, you really have to look at the book not as a passion project because for the most part, it is not. Some people say it. There is a reason why only why why 97% of people never 97% of people who start the first chapter never finish is because they don't have a reason why we started. And they have when they have financial obligations every single day, no matter if they're in business, if they're in corporate environment, you are gonna go after whatever else you have to do opposed to your passion project.
Ben Cena:That happens every single time. That's why people never finish unless you have a clear vision on what you want to accomplish with this particular book and what you want this book to do for you, for your personal brand. And usually it has to be finance related. Otherwise, it's more difficult to justify it.
Adam Larson:Yeah. So let's say somebody's listening to our conversation. They're like, I'm really curious about this. You know, I want to be seen as a thought leader. Maybe I could write a book.
Adam Larson:You know, what are those first steps they should take if they want to start moving in that direction?
Ben Cena:It's interesting question that you ask, and I like how you phrase it, this question. The question is, do you want to write a book or do you want to publish a book? That's the distinction. Most people cannot write a book unless you at least you're an if you're an amateur writer, then I might suggest. But I would assume that most people listening to this, they're busy.
Ben Cena:They have things going on. They're entrepreneurs. They're high level managers working in corporate environment. Right? So you really have to, almost by exception, partner up with somebody who understands the process and can say, okay, if you want to accomplish this, this is a pathway.
Ben Cena:If you want to accomplish that, this is a pathway. Right? You really have to know those kinds of things. And it's really difficult to just have a chat the GBT chat with somebody, right, you know, say, well, I know what I'm doing. I'm gonna do this.
Ben Cena:You know? And it it never comes through. So you really have to consult with somebody. But now what are the first steps? First of all, you have to I'm gonna go back, but you have to know why you're doing this.
Ben Cena:Now once you know the reasons why you're doing this, the first step is to create an idea. Right? How that idea ties up to your goals. The idea is usually the main title of a book, and that's the connection between the title and the cover. It's a magic combination, the magic duo, which I always describe.
Ben Cena:And this is all also part of the reason why whenever somebody works with us, we always capture at least some part of the book cover in the very beginning. Not at the end. Most people do it in the end. Okay. I have my book finished, and now I'm gonna do the cover.
Ben Cena:You want to see how it looks like. You want to know what kind of words are you using to grab your reader and grab your ideal customer potentially. So then you can say, okay. Here is my idea, and here is how it matches with my goals. So this is where the whole journey starts.
Ben Cena:Not writing, not, you know, not even the outline, but the title and the cover. That's where it starts.
Adam Larson:Yeah. So as they're going through that process, you know, let's say they're
Ben Cena:It cannot happen the shower. It cannot happen in the shower, though. It cannot happen in the shower? It cannot happen in the shower. The shower idea usually doesn't work.
Adam Larson:Yeah. But maybe a shower idea can be molded into something that's really good over time, of course.
Ben Cena:Of course. Of course, it can. But it has to be justified with what is out there and what with their research. It has to be justified.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Ben Cena:It can be born in the shower, but it cannot be structured in the shower. Let's put it this way.
Adam Larson:Yes, of course. So are there are there common challenges or things to look out for as somebody is kind of walking down this path? You know, they've got the idea, they've started the process. Are there challenges that they're going to face that they should, you know, be aware of that they should, you know, because it's obviously not a walk in the park. You're not just going to say, oh, I'm writing a book.
Adam Larson:And then two days later you have it all written.
Ben Cena:Expectation. Have clear expectations of what is going to happen, right? One of the other questions that I ask always before we work with anybody is how much time are you willing to commit to this? And not just willing, I would phrase it differently. How much time can you conservatively or you would want to conservatively allocate for this kind of project?
Ben Cena:And I don't want to give an hour amount to anybody. I want them to think. And usually, some most people say, well, I can do ten hours a week. Or some people say, well, I can do eight hours four hours a day. And that's usually just nonsense.
Ben Cena:Right? Now you you really have to know and set up the expectations right. Now the the right answer usually lands between five and fifteen hours. Again, really depending closer to fifteen if you, for some reason, for some crazy reason, you decide to write everything yourself. Now that's that's gonna get closer to fifteen.
Ben Cena:If you're working with some team who know what what we are doing, that's going to be much closer to five or sometimes even lower if you know your customer very well. If you know the kind of message and the structure of a message and what you really want to share very well. The more you know that the less time you need, the less communication has to happen between the professionals and you as I call it like a raw material. The author is usually the raw material because the uniqueness is attached to the person. The person has to provide that raw material to create this masterpiece.
Ben Cena:So setting up the right expectations and knowing, okay, it's going to be a five month process, six month process. And on average, you're gonna have to allocate this amount of time on average. I'm not saying every single week. No. Things happen.
Ben Cena:We're in business. All all things happen. But not having the right expectations and saying, well, I'm gonna do this with this amount of hours. I'm gonna do this and this and this. And the second week, oh, I have to travel there.
Ben Cena:I have to go there. I have to meet these people, and then everything falls apart. That doesn't happen. That's the biggest mistake people make.
Adam Larson:Yeah. I want to circle back to something you mentioned about the topic, how important it is to understand the topic to the fullest extent. And, you know, what does it look like from, you know, from an author's perspective? You know, obviously, if you're getting help, that's helpful. But you know, if you're trying to be a thought leader, there's a certain amount of research and understanding of the whole the topic as a whole to be able to explain it in a way that you can write it down as an author.
Ben Cena:Yeah, that's a good, very good question. Now, there's a two way answer to this. First of all, the question the question back to to that person who is thinking about that is on how well do you know that person you're writing this book for? Because it always comes back to what are you trying to achieve and for who. And the reverse engineering from that is much easier than just saying, this is the idea or this is that idea.
Ben Cena:Right? It doesn't work like that. You have to really think about serving a particular person and saying, okay, what would capture that person? How would that person understand it? And then align that with your style.
Ben Cena:The alignment then happens to have, here's the kind of personality you have. Now, second important part of this is, the question is where you're going for the next two, three, four, five years. Are you trying to change something in your business? Are you planning to change the career? Or are you staying in the same business?
Ben Cena:Are you gonna up your skills? Are you gonna change your if you know that answer, and I have numerous conversations with people all the time, right? If your plan is to go after this market in these many years and your customer, for example, changes, well, it's gonna be different. The idea is gonna be different because you are gonna be talking to maybe a different kind of person. So it's more you have to answer how well you know the customer and reverse engineer from that, Plus, you have to know where you're going.
Ben Cena:What is your plan for a for a foreseeable future? Because then you asked me about the mistakes people make. If you can't really align the future with the book, the motivation is gonna be drained. You got you got you're not gonna be constantly inspired unless you can consistently see the connection between where you're going and what you're doing. And the book is the big part of what you're doing.
Ben Cena:So that's the answer. Well,
Adam Larson:that makes sense. So let's talk about what happens after the book's written. You know, what role does things like social media online presence kind of play in promotions and just making sure that you because obviously you can write a book and post on social media, but it's more than just that, I'm sure.
Ben Cena:Absolutely. Absolutely. Depending on a person, depending on a situation, the phenomenon in the books is that I always say to people, and that happens almost every single time, the book and the message of a book is almost always more powerful than a person who wrote or who is the author. People care more about your problems and the solutions that you they're gonna get than the person who wrote the thing. Right?
Ben Cena:It even goes back to the old days of me growing a self publishing business. These were no named authors, no named people, and we create really great books around that, and people loved them even though the author behind the books was not the exact person who was on the cover. Now understanding this piece, and now you're saying, okay, here is your name here, and now here is a problem that you're solving. Now then, once the book is out there, you realize that social media and your presence can help only the very partial things, the initial boost a little bit. Right?
Ben Cena:But if you really want a lasting success, the biggest platforms on in the world, Amazon, no question about it, it owns more of a 65% of the total market in the Western world. Right? I'm not counting China here. But in the Western world, it's more than 65% of combined ebook and paperback and hardback sales, and even Audible now is over 65%. The platform rewards problem solving books, and the algorithms reward those kind of books that there is a market for and you are addressing that.
Ben Cena:So your social media presence will give that initial boost, which is gonna tell a platform like Amazon that you are serious about this. After that, it's not gonna do much. So the real marketing starts at the very beginning. And one of the biggest tools, which most people not use, is Amazon Ads. The native system of Amazon, which Amazon really loves and people are using it, which really helps to take your book to lasting success.
Ben Cena:Now I know what most people are going to think. Well, maybe I don't have the money to invest. The goal is not to make money with Amazon ads. The goal is to build traction and not lose any money, to create the traction of the book for your problem solving book for many years to come. And we found that as one of the most powerful tools that can create that success.
Ben Cena:And that's what it is.
Adam Larson:Yeah, I know there's people who, you know, who may love the idea of becoming a thought leader, even writing a book, but they're might be hesitant about sharing their expertise because it causes them to become more visible, You know, and what's maybe we can weigh the pros and cons and kind of talk through that. And, you know, maybe there's questions people should ask themselves and, hey, should they take that next step? Maybe you shouldn't.
Ben Cena:Yeah. No. And I'm I'm drawing this as you're asking the question because there is, like, two questions that people have to ask. Mhmm. And usually, two two reasons why people are hesitant.
Ben Cena:On one side, the truth has to be told. Most people who are hesitating to do that, they do not have, or they don't think they have the competence, in turn the confidence to put their material out there to be judged. People with competence and a combination of confidence aka their expertise, they usually don't have that problem. So that's on the one side. People really have to ask themselves, is it an inner confidence issue or is it a real competence issue?
Ben Cena:Meaning you are not there yet in terms of what you want to share. And I really usually help people to answer that question because this is really usually that's an inner confidence problem. Right? It's really difficult to overcome. It has nothing to do with a book.
Ben Cena:It has more to do with I'm not there yet. On the other side, people who have the confidence in their own expertise, the procrastination comes in where they're thinking, I want to make sure this is done right and very well. So they're either looking and looking and looking for the right person to write it with. Right? Or which usually happens like that and life happens.
Ben Cena:They keep hesitating because they are not sure how to put it together, how to package that expertise. Should I do it myself? Should I do it with somebody else? I am a very much expert in this. Nobody is going to write it better than me.
Ben Cena:Right? That kind of game starts playing in their heads. Right? The answer to that is usually you have to talk with somebody who is an expert in their space and can give you an honest answer by saying, here is what I believe you need to do. Right?
Ben Cena:Just like I told you in the beginning, if you are at least a amateur writer, you can write your own book and if you have time. In most cases, you shouldn't. You shouldn't. Even you are the best and most powerful expert in your field, you're not the expert in putting those ideas in a long form book. You are not.
Ben Cena:And you will probably never be. Right? So you have to talk to somebody that you can respect and start working on that.
Adam Larson:So how would somebody find that somebody that they respect to work with? Let's say, you know, hey, I do a little bit of writing inside. I want to write a book, but I know that I can't do this all myself.
Ben Cena:No, you have to talk to people. You have to talk to people. Many times people come to us after numerous conversations, right? And again, it goes back to the same thing. What goals are you trying to achieve?
Ben Cena:It's not just about a book. It's not just about having a person to put the ideas in a full, very flowing way. It's not just about the writing. You really have to create this match of, okay, you understand what I need to do even better than I do, meaning AKA the expert, right? Okay, now we probably have an alignment, which in our organization, what we really seek to accomplish is that, okay, we really know what you want to happen here.
Ben Cena:Let's see if we can make it happen. And many times, many times, because we learn from our mistakes in the past, we were working with people that we probably shouldn't be working with just because there was not the right amount of clarity in terms of what we want to achieve. And that kind of clarity is needed. So you have to talk to people. You have to really talk to at least a few people, right, and say, okay, this is the person that I want to work with.
Ben Cena:And I can trust them. I can see some examples of their work. I can see this. I can see that. Okay, now we can start building that relationship, start working on a project like this.
Adam Larson:Yeah, there's a certain amount of vulnerability, it seems, that's needed in order to be ready to write. Am I correct in that understanding?
Ben Cena:Well, again, you know, Adam, you you asked you asked the the question. You structured the question ready to write. Now it's not about ready to write only. It's more about ready to put your name out there with a book. Are you ready to put your expertise or what people are going to perceive as your best piece?
Ben Cena:That's what people are thinking. If you're gonna put the book out there and people are gonna read it, I want to make sure this is the best representation of me. Right? And that's where people are very struggling about in the beginning, beyond everything else. Now are you ready for that?
Ben Cena:Usually there has to some psychology work has to happen here. It's like, okay, are you ready to it's like I used to be, like I told you, personal trainer in my past life. Are you ready to make a change? I was hearing back in the day for some people, they're like, well, I weigh over forty pounds over what I probably should weigh, but that's me. That's kind of me.
Ben Cena:I don't know if I want to lose 40 pounds. And that's the same here. Are you ready to put your stuff out there? You really have to work it out. You really have to talk to some sort of an expertpsychology involved person in this field to say, okay.
Ben Cena:You are ready. And most people are ready. Most people are ready. We just have to, again, know the reasons why we're doing that. And if you can justify the reasons, don't just go you go after it.
Ben Cena:No. Reasons. Reasons. That's all it is.
Adam Larson:Well, Ben, I just want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast, sharing your expertise with us about becoming an author. I just really hope everybody got as much as I did from it. I just thank you for coming on.
Ben Cena:Of course, Adam. My pleasure. My pleasure.
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