On this episode of Count Me In, we're excited to have Kris Russell join us. Kris, the leadership coach at Conscious Public Accountants, previously captivated our audience in January 2025 during IMA's Leadership Academy webinar series on his session Leadership and Leading from the Heart. His insights resonated deeply, leading to a flood of questions from those eager to explore how vulnerability can enhance leadership. In today's conversation, Kris discusses company culture, the interplay between vulnerability and business needs, and offers practical advice on embracing courageous and authentic leadership. Whether you're navigating trust issues in the workplace or seeking personal growth as a leader, this episode is packed with ideas that are both inspiring and actionable, guiding you toward leading with heart and wisdom.

Kris, thank you so much for coming on the Count Me In podcast today. I'm really excited to have you on. And for those who don't know, back in January of twenty twenty five, we had you on our Leadership Academy webinar series, and the title of that webinar was called Leadership and Leading from the Heart. And it was very well received by our audience, and we had so many questions coming in from the audience that I asked you, I said, Hey, would you want to come on to the podcast and kind of dig a little more into the topic a little bit more? Graciously, you said yes.

And so I want to thank you for that. And I figured we could start off a little just maybe give people a five, like a quick, a quick overview of what we talked about the webinar. I want to encourage everybody to check the notes of this podcast because we'll send you a link so that you can go watch that webinar and kind of see what it was all about. But maybe you could start by just giving a quick overview.

I'd be glad to, Adam. First of all, thank you for having me, and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here with you. At the end of the day, the presentation on leadership and vulnerability is an opportunity for me to explore some of the topics that have been so important for me as a leader in accounting and finance, and now a coach of leaders in accounting and finance. I grew up in a culture of leadership that was not always about vulnerability. All right, I really carried a lot of that stoicism, a lot of that sort of discipline mind.

And some of that's really important for leadership. And that's okay too. But I found in my own experience that as I was able to embrace vulnerability as a leader, number one, my quality of life was impacted tremendously. I was a happier, more engaged person at work. I made better decisions.

I was better to my team. So not only was my quality of life better by, because of learning to embrace vulnerability, but also my team had a much better experience. And therefore, when my team had a better experience, everybody in the companies where I had these leadership positions benefited from that. These behaviors, all of our behaviors really, whether they're wonderful behaviors like vulnerability or destructive behaviors, they have reverberating effects to really everyone in and around our organizations. Everybody that we touch is eventually touched in some way by our actions.

And the more that we can embrace and cultivate actions that are authentic and really lift us up and lift up others and help us to be more open and honest with ourselves and others, I think the better our workplaces can be. Yeah.

Kris, I really appreciate you giving that overview and that understanding. And when you were presenting during the webinar, one of the things that I noticed from the audience was a lot of questions about company culture. People are really reflecting on themselves. They're also reflecting on how they interact with their bosses. And so one of the big things that, you know, I kind of combine a couple of questions together, some of these like they were asking, what is your take on company culture in general?

Because a lot of times things like bottom line and returns are the leader of the conversation and people, they push harder, push harder because, you know, everybody's focused on that short term view of making sure we can meet our bottom line, help our investors or whatever is driving your business. And so how do you balance this idea of vulnerability and being a better leader and also the needs of your business? Because ultimately it's about, you know, keeping your business going.

Of course. Well, there's a lot there to unpack. I think we can hold space for both. And in fact, I think that some of the studies that we looked at when we did in the presentation that we did together demonstrate that healthier workplaces, healthier organizational cultures actually have the opportunity to increase profitability. That when people are engaged and they feel a part of the team and they feel energized and they feel a strong sense of trust, mutual trust between employee and employer, that actually has real life implications for a company's profitability.

So I think these things are actually, they actually go hand in hand. And yes, of course, organizations exist for many reasons. And one of them is to, is to make money for their shareholders or for their sponsors or whatever that looks like. And I believe that as leaders, we have a responsibility to leave those organizations better than we found them. And that so let me just pause there for a second and I wanna really reflect on your reflect on your question.

So you're asking about organizational culture. How does vulnerability come into play when we also have to balance profitability? Well, like I said, number one, I think that they certainly can go hand in hand. Number two, I think that rather than if you work in a big, large multinational corporation, unless you're in the c suite or on the board, you're probably ultimately not going to influence the entire company culture, at least not right away. That's okay.

I think instead of trying to change the entire corporate culture or the organizational culture that you're a part of, I wonder what it would be like to start just taking responsibility for what is within your locus of control or what is within your sphere of influence. If you work for a blue chip Fortune 100 company, no, you're probably not going to influence the entire culture. Certainly not right away. But can you make small changes in the way that you interact with your team, in a way that you interact with your vendors, your suppliers, any of the people that your organization touches. Imagine just what a small, what some small effort there could do and having a ripple effect on your quality of life and the people that you engage with, even if it feels very small at first.

If we think about just a one or two degree shift over time, that adds up tremendously. I'm going pause there for a second. How does that resonate with you?

I really like that view because a lot of times when we think about our organizations that we work for, it can get really stressful when we think about, oh, this person is doing this, this person is doing that. And then I look at this senior person and they do that. You know, what I can I do? And shifting from being annoyed by things that are happening. It's looking at the things we like like a lot of times that that we're faced with.

Hey, what things can you affect right now? What are things that you're in control of? And you're in control of the people you interact with, the people you come into contact with, and you create your own small bubble of, hey, these are the things that I'm doing and I'm impacting as opposed to getting so lost in frustrations. Because no matter where you work, you're going to have frustrations. There's going to be things that annoy you, but you can't get lost there or else you'll probably end up being a very bitter person.

Absolutely. By no means does this mean that we should be walked on or truly mistreated or dealing with relationships at work that are abusive or really just against the core of our integrity. That's not what that means to me at all. But what it does mean is that to be vulnerable leaders, have to take responsibility for where we have influence. Where do we have influence?

And part of that, and this is a little uncomfortable, part of that is really rooting out victimhood and avoidant behaviors that we engage in, because we all do it. We all die certainly have. We all do it. So rooting out those victimhood, those avoidant behaviors, and where am I? How am I contributing to an environment or a workplace culture that may not be the one that I really want to see?

And really, just like with any big change, it really starts with us. We've all heard that adage, if you point the finger, there's three fingers pointing back at you, right? So we've really got to look at what are my behaviors, what are my reactions, my responses to the culture around me, And how can I first be in integrity with myself and in being in integrity with myself, how can I then make sure that I'm being in integrity and compassion with the people that are around me? How does that resonate with you, Adam?

So once you've once you've kind of taken those once you've kind of taken those steps that you you just mentioned, like, hey, I'm looking at myself, I'm looking internally. How do you take that to the next level of making sure that you don't get walked on? Because sometimes you don't understand that that's happening. You don't know how to face that head on, especially in a toxic work environment.

Yeah. When we talk about in the original presentation, when we define what vulnerability is not And one of the big things that it is not is being walked on. It's not being a pushover. It's not being, it's not about being, keeping your thoughts and feelings to yourself. In fact, it's quite the opposite.

It's really being firmly grounded in what we believe in our integrity. You'll hear me use that word a lot in our personal values, our core values, really understanding what those are and being aware when those values or that integrity is not, is either being, is being mistreated or is being that what we're doing or the culture that we're part of is somehow not in alignment. Or even more often is the case when our own actions are not in alignment with our personal values, our integrity. So I would say that it just comes back to continuing to number one, know and understand ourselves. What are our values?

How do we know what's important to us? What are the things that we're willing to give on? What are the things that we're not willing to compromise on because it's just too important, especially if it's a matter of personal integrity. And so, it's actually really healthy for us to do things that we talked about during the presentation, for example, setting boundaries. If we aren't setting boundaries, we can't expect other people to follow them.

Right? It's actually up to the person who sets the boundary to make sure that other people follow that boundary and respect the boundary. So there's a lot here. Again, for me, this continues to look inward in cultivating the person that I want to be, not just as a leader, but as a human being. How does that person show up?

Where am I maybe even walking on myself? You know, at the end of the day, we're, there's not just one of us, there's parts of us. We have multiple parts. There's the part of us that wants this, and there's the part of us that wants that, and there's the part of us that that yearns for this, and the part of us that needs that. So what parts of us are we maybe walking all over and not ignoring and respecting?

Again, I think it just always comes back to starting with us and that that that look inward into into the deeper self and really working on ourselves first and foremost. Because only when we can stand in our own integrity and know what we need and what our boundaries are can we set a boundary and not be walked on by somebody else.

It makes me think, you know, when you have your own boundaries and somebody has their boundaries, how do you kind of mesh together when your boundaries are different?

Yeah, what a great question. And of course, this is inevitable, right? Different people have different needs and different desires. And that's, I think, to be celebrated and embraced. Maybe the one of the key ways to make peace with this is to name it.

I talk a lot with my clients about just naming the pink elephant in the room. Adam, if you and I had very different expectations about how we were going to run this podcast today, if we pretended that those didn't exist, we would not be able to have a successful experience today. And we would need to come together and be open and honest about what we're experiencing. That doesn't mean that we need to be nasty or vindictive or anything, but it can mean, hey, this is the truth I'm experiencing right now, And I sense that your truth is different and we need to meet here in the middle. Where can we find some common ground here?

And work to compromise and not ignore the fact that we might have some differences in our boundaries. Cause I would imagine that in almost every case, if we're able to do that, we're able to come together in openness and honesty about what those different boundaries can be, we actually have a lot to learn from each other, and a lot to grow through in going through that experience together. And when you and I can have that conversation and be open, even if there is a power difference, even if there is a power difference, can almost guarantee that we're gonna come on the other side of that in a stronger way, even if there is some healthy conflict along the way.

Yeah. So, there's the term you used during the webinar called invulnerable. And I know everybody's heard the word vulnerable, so maybe we can just do a quick definition of what is invulnerable versus what is vulnerable, just so our audience can understand and we can kind of continue the conversation, really.

When in the context of vulnerability and leadership, when I think of invulnerability, I'm really speaking about behaviors that keep us closed off, where we're not communicating our needs, where we are doing things that lead us to feel small or unengaged or disrespected, walked on as we just spoke of, or when we are not letting our light shine. You know, we all have these really tremendous gifts that we either were born with or we develop over time, but if we're not letting that light shine in our workplace, I think that's a lack of vulnerability or being invulnerable. I think really anything that we do, we talked about in the presentation, how do I know when I'm doing things that don't align with my true self, with my higher self? And the way we know that is, what am I doing that's with a full heart? And what am I doing that maybe causes me regret, or makes me feel small, or makes me feel fame, or resentment?

Those are really big red flags to help us just be aware of behaviors that we all do, we all do, that are really that opposite, that antithesis of being a vulnerable leader. I'm gonna pause for a second. I'm happy to talk more about it, but does that that make sense?

I think it does. I think we have to get it's one of the vulnerability or vulnerable is one of those words you have to kind of get the the big old elephant out of the room. People see that word and they think, oh, it's just somebody who can't stand up to anybody. It's it's this or it's that. There's a lot of assumptions made about that word.

And I think if we can get over that, we could actually be more vulnerable and be more stronger leaders.

I think so, too. I'd like to give you a synonym for vulnerability that maybe those people that are just really skeptical about what are uncomfortable with it, that a synonym that really works for me is also courage. Doctor. Brene Brown, who is really the queen of vulnerability, she's written many books on the subject, talks about courage and the importance of courage and cultivating vulnerability and how we have to be courageous in order to truly express ourselves, to truly see others. And for me, vulnerability is really embracing the courage factor.

I had one of my coaching peers not too long ago tell me that, she said, Kris, courage is fear plus action. Fear plus action. And that really struck me. That means that I can't be in a space of courage without having fear present. It's simply not possible because by definition, courage requires us to be overcoming fear, to be working with fear.

And so that fear of showing ourselves, fear of being seen, fear of having other people know what we're experiencing, or maybe even this fear of seeing and having compassion for others, all of that is real, and it's okay, and we can still work to have courageous, to attack that courageously, to work with it, instead of making it the enemy, just to be there with it and be present. So, I think that's actually, we don't have to use the word vulnerability. We can use it, pick another term, but what it does, vulnerability for me in this context is not about weakness in any way. We mentioned a quote during the presentation, I'll see if I can get it right, by philosopher Criss Jami. He says that, To be vulnerable is to share your weakness and to share your weakness is to show your strength.

These things go hand in hand.

So you mentioned knowing your authentic self and something doesn't align to your authentic self. And one of the things I think I asked you something similar to this during the live event because, you know, how do you know what your authentic self is? And then how do you know that it's good? Because the person was asking about what if my authentic self is selfish or something that is not quote unquote good? How do I balance that?

How I what do I find that? And I think that it's an interesting conversation to have because what if your authentic self is wants to do something terrible to people? You're like, wait, what do I do with that? It's a little extreme, but you know.

Of course. I would go back to this idea that there are parts of us, any of our listeners, any of the audience that may have undergone therapy using a model called internal family systems is a very popular psychiatric psychological model today that really helps us see that there are different parts of us. We're not just this one thing, right? So there are parts of us that are fearful. There are parts of us that are courageous.

There's parts of us that are vindictive and nasty, and there's parts of us that really are display a beautiful role model of the human spirit. Those are all present within us, and we don't the goal of our own work is not to ignore those parts or shame them. It's really to bring them together and understand those hurtful parts or those parts of us that might be construed as negative. What do we need to do to heal those? What traumas are in our past, or what brought it on?

What is this behavior about that has felt so protective? Alright. So, Adam, we were talking about these different parts of us that exist in response to an audience member's question about these different parts of us. And we acknowledge that there's parts of us that are really beautiful. And there's parts of us that are compassionate.

And there's parts of us that are, that are not always so compassionate or that are judgmental and negative. But I think our true self is really even deeper than that. Whether you look at it from a spiritual point of view, all the major spiritual traditions of the world really point to the same thing that there's a deeper self that's really this really beautiful, beautiful aspect of love and compassion that's present in all of us. And even if you're not coming from a spiritual point of view, just humanly, have the ability to be extraordinarily compassionate, kind, helpful, generous, generous beings. And I believe that those parts of us really come from our deeper, true nature, the true self.

Yeah.

They really do. And I appreciate you bringing up the whole there's different aspects to every person because growing up, a lot of times, people that I know that I've talked to, a lot of us kind of felt like we had to put ourselves in inside one small box.

Of course.

And being able to break out of that box and recognize that you can do many different things, that you're not just limited one thing. With Beyonce winning the best, you know, country album at the Grammys, you know, it shows that somebody can start in one genre, that genres can be limiting as well when it comes to music. I feel like as humans that we can't limit ourselves saying, I'm Adam, the podcaster. Well, I'm also Adam, the father. I'm Adam, the brother.

I'm Adam, the husband. There's so many different aspects to me than just a podcaster. So we can't limit ourselves because if we limit ourselves, then we start to tunnel vision. That's all I can think of.

Yeah, that's a great a great image for it is becoming really myopic, right? When we just start to see ourselves more and more narrowly, especially in accounting and finance, I think this is true in a lot more, a lot of other professions as well. But there's a certain amount of we so strongly put our identities around who around our vocations around our work. And yes, I am, I happen to be skilled at accounting and finance, but at the deeper core level, I'm not an, I am not an accountant. I'm so much more than that.

That's part of what makes me up. But I'm also a husband and I'm also a hiker and I'm also a person who loves to loves to engage in spiritual practices. And I'm a person who loves to volunteer and do other things with my time. So there's so many things about me beyond just the fact that I have an accounting and finance knowledge. And as leaders, I think it's really beautiful that we can embrace that and start to look past our titles and really begin to look at each other as human beings and understand that we have a tremendous amount to give.

And we can only give the most that we have to give when we're coming from a place of wholeness or coming from a place of scarcity and lack and fear. We can know pretty quickly that's that's not showing our full self. That's not really manifesting the deepest parts of ourselves.

And based on what you're saying, it sounds like fear is an Okay thing. I feel like we get taught that fear is a bad thing, that it's not Okay to be afraid. But based on what you've been defining is what courage is, it's really fear is okay. It's just what you do with that fear.

That's what we do with it. Absolutely. Fear is a part of the human experience. And to try to push it away and pretend that it doesn't exist or to make it bad or wrong It does us an extraordinary disservice. Another quote that comes to mind that's really speaks to me about fear is that courage is not the absence of fear, but the recognition that something is more important than that fear.

Something is more important than that fear. We can use that fear as our fuel, as part of our fuel, as part of our fire by acknowledging it, accepting it, letting you know, Hey, I see you fear. How's it going? Good to see you again. Make yourself comfortable.

It's okay. We're going to get through this together. That fear, just like any other part of us that we may not always like was put there for a reason. It was put there to protect us. It was put there to keep us safe.

And that's okay. Those parts of us are there for a good reason. The problem is when those protective behaviors like fear, avoidance, there's many, guess, escapism, any of those things, when those and the benefits of those behaviors are outweighed by the costs. So, our fear is costing us more than it's benefiting us, and we're not learning to work with that fear and use it to evolve as a human being, that's when we know we have an opportunity to begin to build a different relationship with that fear.

When we talk about vulnerability, a lot of times it can be really connected to trust. You feel Okay to be vulnerable because there's trust there. What happens when there's a lack of trust and how can you be vulnerable? Let's say you're doing the work, you've listened to this, you're like inspired. You're like, I want to be more vulnerable.

I want to be a better leader. But you're in an environment where there's not much trust, especially in a workplace. Like how do you how do you find a way to still be that vulnerable, strong leader, but without trust?

Yeah, I would always start with start with ourselves. Where in my own life am I? Can I trust myself? Do I follow through with the things that I say that I'm going to do? Where in my life, and we all do it.

This is not pointing a finger. I'm telling you this is part of the human experience, but where in our lives are we maybe not living in as much integrity as we can be? So it starts there, is identifying where we can continue to be in more integrity with ourselves, our loved ones, the people around us. And from there, I think as we start to make adjustments on our own behaviors, we start to cultivate those practices with the people around us, with our teams. And frankly, one of the most important things to do here is to name this.

We talked about the elephant in the room earlier. Name the fact that, Hey guys, listen, you know, I'm noticing I've been doing a lot of introspection. I'm thinking about our team and our culture. I realized that there may not be as much trust as I'd really liked her to be here. And I'm going to take responsibility for my piece of that because I can see that I've done this, this and that, or I've contributed to this way.

But I'm here to let you know that it's important to me that we start changing this culture, that I want to develop a system where we can be open and trusting and more honest with each other. And just start there and see what happens. It's amazing what happens. You talk about vulnerability? I mean, that's courage to walk out in front of a team or your boss or your boss's boss or whatever that looks like, your investors, and say, You know what?

I think there's some opportunities here for us to build trust. If that doesn't take courage, I don't know what does. And that's how this courage and vulnerability walk hand in hand. So yeah, I think there's something to be said about really owning it in ourselves first. Where am I?

Where could I live in more integrity and deeper integrity with myself? And then naming it. Being really out in front of it and taking responsibility openly with the team for what we can and start start the ball rolling. Just get these conversations going.

It's almost like when you have that conversation that builds a level of trust just automatically right there. You're open like that, people are like, Okay, this is the type of culture. Cool.

This is the type of culture. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, can you I don't know if you've ever had the experience of growing up if your parents made a mistake. I mean, if they ever made a mistake and then really came and owned it. What a what a what an experience that that was.

Can you think of anything like that in your past?

If. I'm not sure. I can't remember that really happening. But I can say that I've tried to do that with my children because as a person growing up, I didn't see that very often where an adult would come and say, Hey, this is this is on me. Yeah.

And that may have happened, but I don't have memory of anything that really stuck with me, so I'm not sure that it did. Yeah.

Well, I bring that up just because if you're seeing it as a parent, if you're engaging in that kind of behavior, what I'm just curious when you've done that, how has it shifted the relationship with your children?

I I hope I hope that, you know, I don't think my kids listen to this podcast, but I hope that it has been a positive influence on them that they see that, hey, I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong. And so when I'm pushing you to say, hey, be honest with me, it's Okay to admit that you're wrong. And I want to kind of find that balance, but also just willing to just be Okay with, Hey, I messed up and I made a mistake and I'm sorry.

Yeah, absolutely. And we talk a lot about how as leaders, are inescapably accountable for our actions.

Yeah.

And sometimes the most powerful thing that we can do is to display our humanness and to be able to say, Listen, I'm taking responsibility for parts of this situation that I could have done a lot better. And I want you to know it's important to you, my team, my boss, my whoever, my peers, whatever, it's important to you, to me that you know that I know that I have a part to play in this. And here's what I'd like to do differently going forward. Will you help me? Can you help me walk different way with you in this relationship?

Can we work together to cultivate a different space here, a different way of being? You know, there's Archbishop Desmond Tutu, who was a Nobel Prize winner. He talks about forgiveness. He says, Anybody who says forgiveness is easy hasn't tried it. And I think the same thing with vulnerability is true, that anybody who says it's easy or that it's somehow weak hasn't tried it.

That really the courageous parts of us are there waiting for us to step into our own. Yeah.

Well, and we've all seen the opposite example of leaders who are not willing to take accountability, who everything that happens, they blame everybody else but themselves. And you can kind of see what that brings. And I don't think there's many people who would want that type of atmosphere, that type of place to work in because it could become very toxic. Because no matter what happens, if you try to take ownership of something, then suddenly, oh, I can't take ownership because I'll get thrown in the bus and all these different reparations will happen.

Absolutely. And it doesn't mean that we have to show all of our cards all the time as leaders. We can't do that either. That's that's not that's not a part of vulnerability. You know, we talked about in the presentation that we spoke with Brene Brown earlier.

She has a story in one of her books about a startup CEO who came to her and said, look, I'm really in over my head and I think I'm going to tell my investors and my employees that I'm in over my head. And she said, you know, that's probably a terrible idea. Number one, you'll you'll you'll never get funded again. But number two, much more importantly, you're gonna be putting these employees livelihoods at risk. These are people who've risked a tremendous amount to work for you.

But you absolutely have a responsibility to communicate this to someone you trust, someone who can help you through this situation and walk hand in hand with you through what was a very challenging situation. It's not about showing the lure cards all the time, but it is about taking ownership and responsibility for where we have room to grow, and when appropriate, sharing that with people who can help us.

Well, and I think it's very important, you know, to have like it makes me think of mentorship and finding peers that we can kind of chat with and kind of bounce ideas off of, whether it's whether it's a mentor mentee relationship or just a peer to peer relationship and how important that is to not be closed off. Because a lot of times as a leader, it's kind of lonely at the top.

It is. It certainly can be very lonely. You know, of course, I'm as a coach, I'm partial to to professional coaching, but that, of course, doesn't have to be the only outlet. It can be a great outlet, but really we just need to be able to find places where we can be, we can let our guard down and we can be in a space of trust and vulnerability with people who say, you know what, I'm not engaging in behavior that is really sitting right with me. I want to make some changes.

I want to be held accountable to this. And how can we come together as a group to help support me? There's a study by, I believe it's Dominican University, that shows that if we not only explain our goals to someone, but then check-in, for example, weekly with someone in an accountability relationship and update them on our progress, that we are dramatically, dramatically more likely to be ragingly successful in achieving our goals. And it's no different with becoming a better leader, a better husband, a better father, a better community member, all of that. But you're absolutely right.

It does require some, a place where we can come together and let our guard down and be open and trusting and vulnerable with each other. And as leaders, there are, it can be, feel very, very lonely. It certainly can. But I've been blessed to have some really great examples of leadership too. I don't know that he'll hear this podcast, but one of the most incredible leaders I ever worked for was a CEO named Phil Farmer, just an extraordinary human being who took absolute accountability for his actions and the impact that they had on his team and was also the very first person to say I screwed up and here's how I'm going make it better and here's what we're going to do differently.

And that type of leadership, I mean, you'd follow a person like that anywhere, right? You'd follow that person anywhere.

Yeah, you really would. Well, Kris, I just really want to thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks for having this conversation with me and I encourage everybody to check out what Kris is doing online and connect with him. And thank you again for coming on.

You're so welcome, Adam. It's my pleasure. I hope we get to do something like this again. This

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