Adam Larson: 00:21

Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by the insightful Rachel Kourakos. Rachel is a transition and leadership coach at Rachel Kourakos Coaching and Consulting, where she works with individuals and organizations to help empower people in their individual journey. Today, Rachel shares her insights on mastering human interactions, understanding personal boundaries, and the importance of self awareness in the personal and professional setting.

Adam Larson: 00:47

We'll discuss how emotional intelligence can reduce misunderstandings and aid effective leadership. Rachel offers a unique perspective on embracing change playfully and challenges eliminating narratives that often hold us back. Join us as Rachel provides practical advice on leading with authenticity, using empathy and curiosity to build genuine connections, and navigating life's transitions with intention. This episode is packed with wisdom to help you grow and thrive. So grab your headphones and tune in.

Adam Larson: 01:20

Well, Rachel, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. We're really excited to have you here talking about, becoming a better leader by knowing yourself. And as we've been chatting off and on, on leading up to this conversation, there's one thing you keep saying that everybody's a leader. And the way society has things broken down is very hierarchical, and because of, you know, historically, you could probably go into a whole speech about why the system's set up that way. But not everybody necessarily agrees with that.

Adam Larson: 01:46

Can you can we talk a little bit more about that?

Rachel Kourakos: 01:48

Yeah. Absolutely. Well, it's so nice to be here, Adam. I'm so excited to talk to you about this topic. And I think, you know, as we've spoken, when we think about leadership, there's one version of it that is all about the hierarchy.

Rachel Kourakos: 02:02

The, you know, we come in order, and as you said, society sets things up to create hierarchy that allows us to really understand where we fall in the social construct, how we show up, the type of work that we do, especially when you're working at large organizations, and it helps guide us in understanding the roles and responsibilities that we have.

Adam Larson: 02:21

Mhmm.

Rachel Kourakos: 02:21

However, I wholeheartedly believe that being a leader is actually an attitude. It's a perspective. It's a way that you understand yourself and how you relate to the world around you that everyone has access to. And the mistake that I see people make is they sort of wait until someone says, okay. Now, Adam, you are the leader.

Rachel Kourakos: 02:42

Now you are the senior person in order to then activate that part of themselves. And the the irony of that is is you don't become a leader when someone puts the crown on your head and says, now you are a manager. Now you are a leader. Oftentimes, what's required is you have to be cultivating that sense of leadership, and we'll talk about what I mean by that, well before you are actually given that crown. And so the mistake that I mentioned that people make is they say, okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 03:08

Well, once I get that recognition or once I get that acknowledgment as a leader, I will then be showcasing all of these different attributes, excuse me, attributes, and, it will help me build my sense of self and my sense sense of confidence once I have that thing. When, actually, when I'm working with people and coaching leaders, whether they're execs or rising execs, a lot of the work that we're doing is how can you channel that sense of leadership and confidence beforehand so that when you do get that crown, so to speak, it's already a natural thing that's flowing. It's not a before and after in that moment. It's the before before before, and then you get that recognition and it's and, of course, it's happening. And so when I say everyone is already a leader, what I'm encouraging people to to recognize in themselves is every day in everything you're doing, in every conversation, in every decision, you are either leading yourself or someone else.

Rachel Kourakos: 04:05

And when you start to see yourself in that way that, oh, I'm actually leading right now, one, it helps you develop that sense of responsibility of, okay, if I'm leading, what am I leading right now? And so that could be really benign and what are we going to make for dinner tonight? Right? And so you're leading your family or your partner or your friends on what should we eat? What should we do?

Rachel Kourakos: 04:25

That's a leadership moment. But then it can be big in where do I want to live? Or what do I want to do? Or how do I want to contribute to this project? And people sort of accidentally make themselves subordinate by way of the hierarchy structure when in reality, you have access to be leading yourself and other people at any point.

Rachel Kourakos: 04:46

And the truth is when you start to see things that way, you activate all those leadership capabilities that you're seeking.

Adam Larson: 04:58

It's a it's a it's a concept that it's a it it reminds I'm almost speechless. It's one of those things that, you know, they always say wear, you know, wear dress like you want dress where you wanna go kind of thing. And that that that's what that what you just described reminds me of. And I feel like it's so easy to get comfortable where you are, especially when you're so used to the hierarchical societal, like, hey, this is how the way things are. And you get so compliant and get so simple.

Adam Larson: 05:27

How do you transition from, hey. I'm just gonna do my job. If I ever get a leadership position, that's fine. But if not, I don't care. And even if you're in that position, you can't even like, you have to transition your mindset to even think to even think about going to the next level.

Rachel Kourakos: 05:42

Yeah. Completely. Well, I think one of the ways to address that is to remove this notion that, like, leadership is separate from you right now. Right? The first thing you have to do is not say, oh, well, like, maybe I'll become a leader one day.

Rachel Kourakos: 05:57

Yes, that's true if your definition of a leader is when you have that crown on your head. Absolutely. But I would encourage you to say, Okay, how can I think of myself as a leader right now? Because even if you are the most junior person on a team and your boss' boss' boss comes to you and says, you know, hey, Adam. Quick question about this thing that you're doing.

Rachel Kourakos: 06:19

Even if it's administrative, like, kind of, like, lower level type of work, you have an opportunity to lead that person to clarity, to understanding what needs to happen. So when you look at those little moments and say, this is a chance for me to lead someone even if you're not necessarily leading all the people, but you're leading yourself and you're leading that one person. That's how you can start to cultivate that sense of leadership. So the first piece is, are you defining leadership purely as, oh, if I you know, being more senior at your company? And I would encourage you to get creative on is that actually the definition.

Rachel Kourakos: 06:54

Adam, you and I were talking just about your kids and your family. You are a leader of 5 little humans, plus at certain moments, probably your partner. And at certain points, your partner's the leader. And at certain points, by the way, your 9 year old's the leader.

Adam Larson: 07:08

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 07:09

And you're following following him. And so when you start to kind of break down those rules of what leadership actually looks like, you give yourself permission to lead, and you give yourself permission to then transition to that leadership type of role eventually. But I also think it's really important to to clarify, Adam, with you is not everyone wants to, quote, unquote, be a leader. Some people are happy to show up every single day and follow, and that's great too. But even in following, you're leading yourself to follow someone else.

Rachel Kourakos: 07:45

So you're still a leader in some capacity.

Adam Larson: 07:49

I was just I was just thinking about that. If you are looking at those leadership qualities and cultivating that in yourself, you can be you become a better follower for the people who are leading you to somewhere else. Because you can't be a leader in everything in your capacity in your life. You're gonna need people to follow behind to get certain places because we can't do everything on our own despite, you know, what movies may tell you and other things like that.

Rachel Kourakos: 08:14

Absolutely. And some of the best named leaders are incredible followers. They know exactly when to sit back and let their team lead the way. They know exactly when to be quiet and let someone junior get activated in that moment to lead. And so I think it's important to layer in that fluidity of leadership, that leadership doesn't mean I'm in charge and I have authority and I make all the decisions.

Rachel Kourakos: 08:40

It's actually the best leaders are really good at knowing when to lead and when to follow and are consciously making that decision in every interaction that they're having.

Adam Larson: 08:53

It it requires a certain level of humility, it seems like, to be able to step back and say, nope. Hey. I want you to I want you to go. And how important it is to so speaking of humility, it seems like emotions and observations, and you can read any headlines of what's happening. We don't even need to get into that.

Adam Larson: 09:10

But you see, you know, world leaders making decisions, and you're like, is that person in charge of their emotions? You know? Like, if you just take a step back and reflect and so being humble enough to take a step back is is huge for anybody because the higher you get up, the more ego that gets, and you have to kinda fight with that.

Rachel Kourakos: 09:27

Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. Well, the number one thing that I always work on, whether I'm working with execs, founders, junior people, rising leaders, is self awareness. It's really hard to change and evolve and grow if you don't have awareness of who you are, what you're about, how your emotions create patterns in your understanding of the world, how they influence your perspective on the world.

Rachel Kourakos: 09:54

And so, you know, I love the word that you're bringing up, humility, but it's humility paired with awareness. Because the gap and I I have coached many a leaders who say, I really want to be an incredible leader, and I want to do these things. And then they have all these huge blind spots that, in their mind, they genuinely think they are doing the thing, but they're not actually doing the thing. And so what I mean by that is they'll say, oh, I, you know, I really care for my team, and I wanna cultivate this culture of trust. And then a lot of their actions inadvertently are not aligned with trust cultivation.

Rachel Kourakos: 10:31

And so step number 1 is always self awareness, and sometimes that's raw and tough self awareness where you say you would actually look in the mirror and say, you know what? Mentally, this is important to me, but my actions are not aligned with it. And when you're trying to change and evolve as a leader, which is so required in today's day and age with all the different external factors influencing businesses and people and the way that we work, when you're trying to change as a leader to keep up or adapt, that self awareness and that and what I mean by self awareness is that being in touch with your emotions and then making a conscious choice to either let your emotions guide you or diffuse and make a different choice and make a different decision once your emotions have subsided or that ego that you're mentioning have subsided, that's actually how you can create change.

Adam Larson: 11:29

That is not an easy thing for anyone to look inside oneself, to address the issues that you see, and be willing to say, yeah. I was wrong or, yeah, that's not me. I it it mean, it's even hard even the older I get, the I mean, I find it easier the older I get because I'm, you know, learning new things. But I see peers, and I'm like, oh, that person might need some help. You know, it's I think it's it's really painful to see on the other side, not that I'm claim I'm completely self aware, but I've learned a lot through my life experiences.

Adam Larson: 12:04

And when I notice somebody else who isn't there yet, I'm like, oh. But how do you like, so situation. Let's say you're at work and somebody just goes off. You're like, wow. That person must be having a bad day, or what's going on with that person?

Adam Larson: 12:16

You know, if you're just a peer, like, is that something you you say, hey. Are you okay? Like, what's the what's the what's a good response, especially in a workplace? Because it's hard because you don't wanna get in somebody's business. People have their own things going on.

Adam Larson: 12:29

But you you also care for others too.

Rachel Kourakos: 12:31

Yeah. Absolutely. So there's a few things that I wanna acknowledge in what you just said. So the first is the more self aware you become, which is an exercise and I know in corporate settings, sometimes that's where it doesn't land, but, like, it's an exercise of consciousness. Right?

Rachel Kourakos: 12:45

So as you become a more conscious being, you are going to become hyperaware and vigilant of the consciousness of other people. So as you do the work to raise your self awareness, you start to then see other people who have maybe not done that same work or who are not conscious beings, and it becomes really apparent on, like, where they are in their consciousness. And so that's a really normal thing to have happen. And I think that what's important when that does happen is to catch yourself if you are judging other people in that moment, when you're like, Oh, I've done the work. I understand these things.

Rachel Kourakos: 13:22

I see exactly that person's ego kicking in. But are you then in judgment for where they are? And the reason that that's important is to answer your question of how do you navigate and how do you handle it when you see one of your peers, one of your colleagues kicking off about something or responding in a way that maybe isn't as professional or upholding the culture of the organization. The first thing that's really important is, am I in judgment right now? Am I judging this person for their reaction?

Rachel Kourakos: 13:49

If the answer is yes, you have an awareness loop, and you have an you have an opportunity to sit with yourself and the emotions that are coming up to cultivate your self awareness so that you can release some of that judgment so that you can invite in curiosity. So I always say curiosity is the antidote to judgment.

Adam Larson: 14:10

Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 14:11

If you're in judgment, the question then becomes how can I get curious? So, Adam, you actually naturally did this where you said, Maybe this person's having a bad day. Are they okay? Right? So you naturally went to curiosity.

Rachel Kourakos: 14:21

But sometimes in the heat of the moment, that's hard to access. You're gonna be like, oh, that person's a jerk. That person's like, really? What? Like, I'm back off.

Rachel Kourakos: 14:29

Right? You'll be in judgment. So it's normal to be in judgment. Right? Because our emotions are gonna kick in in response to an emotional trigger by someone else.

Rachel Kourakos: 14:38

But then what you wanna do is sit with yourself to get to curiosity. Then what you wanna acknowledge is how can I either hold space for this person, which for anyone listening or watching who doesn't know what that means, that means how can I actually have a conversation with this person with an intention of letting them vent or process or talk? That's what holding space is, where it's like, can I get some room to hear what's going on? So you have to decide if you can hold space for someone or not, and that starts with your ability to be curious, be open to help that person. If you feel like you can't be and you're gonna be aggressive or judgmental, probably a good one to walk away for some time until you've cooled off and then feel like you can have that conversation.

Rachel Kourakos: 15:24

But here's the thing that I actually really wanna talk about, Adam, is in professional settings, and I see this across so many organizations despite them having amazing individual people. But oftentimes, I have no idea where this came in from, but in professional settings, we put up all these guardrails and rules of how emotion how we're supposed to have emotional interactions with each other and what is okay to do or not okay to do. Right? So if you were at a friend's party and someone seemed upset, you would have no issue. You'd be like, of course I'm going to go say, 'Are you okay?' Do you want to go for a walk?

Rachel Kourakos: 16:00

Do you want to talk? If it was one of your friends, you would be like, if I saw my friend freak out or be upset about something, I would not even question it. But in a professional setting, when you're sitting with your peer, sometimes you'll say, like, I don't it's not really my business. Like, do like, maybe there's something personal going on. And to me, I'm like, what has gone on in the professional setting, and I'm using air quotes right now, that has pushed us to forget to be really human?

Rachel Kourakos: 16:28

And my my aunt always says, if you have something nice to say or do, always do it. And then if the person doesn't wanna talk about it, let them say, you know, it's personal. I don't really feel like talking about it. Great. That's totally okay if they have a boundary that they don't wanna cross with a professional colleague.

Rachel Kourakos: 16:46

But if you are concerned and you're saying, you know, is this person okay? Always ask. Always, always, always ask. And by the way, for those of you who are listening or watching who are more junior, the senior people, the execs, are humans. They also have all of the emotions.

Rachel Kourakos: 17:04

I have coached one of the most eye opening things in coaching over 40 execs over the last couple years has been that some of them are in their forties, fifties, sixties, and they feel the exact same things that the clients that I'm coaching who are in their twenties are feeling. And it it translates differently that, like, the context of why they're feeling that way is completely different, but it's the same human emotion. And so I think it's so important that you check-in with with yourself, am I in judgment or curiosity? You then say, can I hold space for this person? You then remember to be a human, to just be a human.

Rachel Kourakos: 17:45

The same way in New York City, I've seen someone crying on the street and I have said, Hi, stranger. Are you okay?

Adam Larson: 17:52

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 17:53

And someone has given me a hug. They're like, Can I have a hug? And I'm like, Yes. You can have a hug. And then that's the end of the engagement because that's what it means to be human.

Rachel Kourakos: 18:02

And we really we write these rules that make us forget that every person's human and everyone just wants to be cared for in different ways. And if they don't, they'll tell you, and that's okay.

Adam Larson: 18:12

Yeah. I I really like that approach. You know, everything that you said was really great, reframing it and remembering to look at yourself, say, what what am I doing? Why am I having these thoughts? But it all comes back around to something, you know, that you and I've talked about for is remembering that it's not about you.

Adam Larson: 18:29

So you see that person and they're having that struggle instead of, you know, you're like, I wanna go talk to them. Well, it's not about you. 1st, look at yourself, look at your judgment, you know. Then if if it goes to curiosity and then there's creative moment for that space, still it's not about you and you're respecting their boundaries and making sure that you're creating that safe moment. Because if they don't wanna talk to you, they don't wanna talk to you.

Adam Larson: 18:48

If you've never talked to that person in your whole life, you know, is that the first time that you wanna say, hey, are you okay? Like, hey, you've never talked to me before. But it could be an open moment like the person on the street like you were saying. But it's remembering that's not about you.

Rachel Kourakos: 19:01

Absolutely, Adam. And if I were to die on a hill in over the last few years, it would be that message of it's not about you ever. It's always about the person and their circumstances and their situation. They might throw it out on you. Like, sometimes they might emotionally vomit on you by accident.

Rachel Kourakos: 19:21

But if you as a person can bring that consciousness and instead of being like, why are they yelling at me or why are they mad at me? And say, hold on. Okay. This feels like it's about me, so it might be a little bit. But if it weren't about me and I were really just listening to what this person is communicating, what is it really about?

Adam Larson: 19:44

So I'll

Rachel Kourakos: 19:44

give you example. Let's say you work on a project. You then are presenting it to a couple of senior leaders, and you've been working on the project for a couple months, presenting it to a couple of senior leaders, and you get feedback on the project, and it's not great. It's this isn't really the strategic direction we wanted to go. This is, you know, not capturing a lot of things that we think are really important.

Rachel Kourakos: 20:06

The not conscious person, the not conscious leader would say, oh, no. I'm not good enough. I worked so hard, and it wasn't what they wanted. I don't know. You know, I can't I'm not effective at my job.

Rachel Kourakos: 20:18

I didn't perform. Right? Which is all a normal thing to have go through someone's mind, where they make it all about them. Side note, there's beautiful work to do on that in partnership with coaches and professionals and people to work through that sense of self. But what happens is when someone goes into that kind of thinking, they sort of miss all the juicy information that they're gathering from their leaders, from the people that they're gathering feedback from.

Rachel Kourakos: 20:49

And what happens is they get so kind of I'm saying they we because if this happens to everyone. We get so caught up in managing our own hearts and our own emotions and reaction to feeling disappointed on the outcome that we forget to get curious. We forget to then say, They're giving me a lot of really good info that can help me address core sorry, help me change course or address what's going on. But we miss the opportunity to do that because we're so busy making it about ourselves. So it's seldom that those people are saying, you as a human are not good enough.

Rachel Kourakos: 21:26

Right? Like, it's that's very rare that that's what's actually being communicated. So if that's not what they're trying to communicate, what are they trying to communicate? So in cultivating that ability to lead yourself and lead others and not make it about you, you have to say, okay. This is painful.

Rachel Kourakos: 21:41

This is what it sounds like. It's, I feel not good enough. I'm upset. I worked really hard on this. Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 21:47

Hold on. Rachel, this isn't about you right now. It's not about you. We can deal with that after. If it's not about me, what is this about?

Rachel Kourakos: 21:55

Oh, this person said that we missed looping in a team that really needs to be giving input. Okay. Great. Let me ask a follow-up question on that. What what do we need to talk about with this team?

Rachel Kourakos: 22:04

Why did you why do you think that they should be included? I hadn't thought about that. Beautiful. You learn. Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 22:10

This person said this thing. Beautiful. You learn. And this isn't about I just wanna be so abundantly clear. This is not a shove your emotions under the rug.

Rachel Kourakos: 22:20

This is not about removing emotion. I am a big believer that the best leaders carry a ton of emotion in everything that they're doing, but they are bringing in intentional emotion, and they understand what is kick starting different patterns in themselves and can work with it. So while you might still have that internal narrative of being upset, you then say, Ah, okay. So this negative feedback is just triggering my performance desires and my desire to achieve. I know that that's important to me.

Rachel Kourakos: 22:49

It's okay that this feels this way, and that's normal. And let me just not put it aside, but put it down next to me because I'm sitting in front of a group of people who are trying to help me achieve my goal by way of their feedback. And so I'm giving that example, Adam, because it we get we all get so stuck in making about us personally, and it's rarely about that. It's rarely about that. And when you're not paying attention in that way, you're gonna miss what's being communicated.

Rachel Kourakos: 23:26

So I'll give one other totally separate example.

Adam Larson: 23:29

Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 23:31

After dinner, you and your partner or your roommate have dishes to do. You're annoyed because your roommate or partner hasn't done the dishes the last couple of nights. And you look at your partner and you say, Hey. It's your turn to do the dishes, and you bring all this sass in. Or, Yes, exactly.

Rachel Kourakos: 23:51

Please, it's your turn to do the dishes. Go do it. But, really, there's probably a little more aggressive words in there. Maybe you're really fired up. You never do anything.

Rachel Kourakos: 23:58

Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The receiver in the nonconscious version is likely going to be like, well, I did the dishes last week, and I did the blah blah blah. You know, they'll go into and play into that kind of energy loop. Whereas as as the receiver, if you can say, this person has a need that's not being met, and the need is they need to feel cared for right now. And you then respond saying, you know what?

Rachel Kourakos: 24:24

You're right. I didn't do the dishes the last 3 nights, and I can tell it's important to you. Let me come do them right now. You are gonna cut off a 20 minute back and forth. That second that example I'm giving you, that you're you're saying, this isn't about me.

Rachel Kourakos: 24:41

They're just annoyed with me.

Adam Larson: 24:42

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 24:43

They have a need that's not being met. What is that need? Let me go meet that need. And it's coming from an open and gentle place where you're willing to be like, oh, I don't like what they said. Actually, I did do the dishes too.

Rachel Kourakos: 24:55

Like, you can play that game. You can play that game, but when you're thinking about how you interact with people and how you the energy that kind of flows between you and another person, whether it's at work or at home, if you cannot make it about you and really say, well, what is this person really communicating right now? Oftentimes, you're gonna have the key to what's going on. Yeah. And this is true in negotiation.

Rachel Kourakos: 25:23

This is true in feedback. This is true in, you know, cross functional dynamics, but we forget. We make it all about us.

Adam Larson: 25:32

Wow. As you were talking, it made me think, like, person who's talking to you needs to be a good communicator, then you need to be a good listener. But it's not just listening. It's listening with self awareness. Yes.

Adam Larson: 25:45

Right?

Rachel Kourakos: 25:46

Yes. It's listening with self awareness. But the one thing I'm gonna tweak on what you just said Mhmm. They don't need to be a good communicator. They can express it however they want to express it.

Rachel Kourakos: 25:54

You have to be willing to listen with self awareness and a desire to listen to what's not being said or to what's being said under the surface and not play in the egoic component of it. And so what I mean by that is if someone says, You haven't done the effing dishes, and I'm mad at you, and you never meet my needs, right, they're just communicating from a hurt ego. It will trigger your ego because you are human. Right? That's if someone's yelling at you or annoyed with you, you're automatically gonna go into defense.

Rachel Kourakos: 26:26

Right? Because you have survival instincts and an ego that drives a lot of things.

Adam Larson: 26:29

Mhmm.

Rachel Kourakos: 26:30

And so that self awareness that we're talking about is having the ability to see your ego being like, that's that's making me mad. I can feel it. I don't like why I have this person speaking to me, and say, but that's not the point. Let it go. Like, put it aside for a second.

Rachel Kourakos: 26:46

What is the point? This person just wants me to help. Okay. I can do that. And that's how you also start to break down, like, cycles.

Rachel Kourakos: 26:55

And we're talking in extremes. Sometimes this can be in non extreme moments. It can just say, oh, you know, I thought we were meeting at this time, and you pushed it out and, you know, like, it can be it doesn't have to be in aggressive extreme moments, but everyone is always communicating something deeper and bigger than what you think they're communicating. And if you can work to understand yourself and your ego, which is always gonna be part of you But I think of it, honestly, I think of it, Adam, as you have your heart, which is, like, who you are, and then you have bubble wrap around your heart. And each one of those bubbles on the on the bubble wrap is a is a belief you have that is driven by your ego.

Rachel Kourakos: 27:36

That bubble wrap is your ego. And you have life experiences that make you wrap your heart tighter and tighter to keep it safe with a ton of bubble wrap. And most people only operate from their bubble wrap because they're so afraid of what would happen if we lead from our heart.

Adam Larson: 27:55

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 27:56

And to me, self awareness, self understanding, like, all of that is looking at your bubble wrap and then finding ways to pop a couple of the bubbles because they're no longer needed. They're from childhood stuff. They're from different experiences that aren't necessarily relevant today, and try to open up and unwrap so that you are a heart forward leader. That is not just, you know, rainbows and sunshine, but, like, really leading with passion and purpose and connection and wanting to support so that you can cultivate a better world. I mean I mean, it gets it gets big.

Rachel Kourakos: 28:36

Like, it's little and big. It's to cultivate a better world and better working dynamics and teams that can accomplish more than you ever dreamed of. But if you're leading from your bubble wrap, from your ego, it's really hard to do because you activate everyone else's ego.

Adam Larson: 28:54

You're you're leading from a place of fear at that point.

Rachel Kourakos: 28:57

Exactly. Exactly. Because your ego is just afraid. They just wanna keep it just wants to keep you safe. But, you know, like I said, curiosity is the antidote to judgment.

Rachel Kourakos: 29:07

Love is the antidote to fear. You can't be in love and in fear at the same time. Is one or the other driving that? And so as leaders, can you be loving and curious? And I know I'm using language that's not typical in corporate settings, but I have no idea why we've lost it.

Adam Larson: 29:23

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 29:24

No idea why we don't bring that in. And some of the most powerful leaders are I mean, this is why you hear people meditating, going on retreats, going with coaches, like, all this stuff. There's this massive swing towards people going to therapy. Like, everyone's trying to reconnect and get back in touch with that truer self because our society has sort of built over the last decades this robotic version of humans that, honestly, is not not being accepted and certainly not being accepted by Gen z. I can tell you that much.

Adam Larson: 29:56

And if you look at how organizations are set up, they're not set up to be a place of, you know, zen calm thinking, and they're very fast paced. Some places are very high energy, high-tech, like, high stakes kind of places. How do you apply these principles in those in these into modern settings? Because a lot of places are understaffed and people are overworked. And unless you're the high up person who has time to go on their Zen retreat, and you're like a like a single person working, you know, with 3 kids and you're trying to make ends meet and you as soon as you leave work, you're doing this and doing that.

Adam Larson: 30:30

Yeah. Like, how do you apply these principles in those moments

Rachel Kourakos: 30:32

when you

Adam Larson: 30:32

feel like you have no time?

Rachel Kourakos: 30:34

Absolutely. It's such a good question, Adam. And it's something that most people struggle with. Right? It's it's all well and good when we're sitting practicing yoga on a beach in Costa Rica to be like, yes.

Rachel Kourakos: 30:42

I'm going to live this beautiful zed life. So there's a couple things to think about. One is is to anchor on who do you wanna be every day. Very simple. Who do I wanna be today?

Rachel Kourakos: 30:55

How do I wanna feel? Every morning, I ask myself 3 questions. Who do I wanna be today? How do I wanna feel? And where can I create some magic?

Rachel Kourakos: 31:04

And for me, that helps me anchor in today, presence. Do I have goals and ambitions and think dreams? Absolutely. But it's really hard to achieve those dreams when you're in a constant stress state.

Adam Larson: 31:18

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 31:19

Second thing is whatever form of access you have to doing some of the work on yourself, whether that's via books, coaches, therapists, journaling, whatever, ever there's the whole scale of ways to raise your awareness. But doing that deeper work to really understand, oh, this is just kicking in my my fear of, like, not being smart enough. Oh, this is just kicking in my fear of not being included. Oh, okay. The world becomes a bit lighter because you no longer are that thing.

Rachel Kourakos: 31:55

You work with that thing. So it's the difference between being, like, I am anger versus I feel angry. It's really hard to do that until you actually understand yourself. And the reason that that's important, and and and I again, I'll harp on this. Like, it all starts with that self awareness is if you want things to be different, you have to be aware of what you're trying to change, and then you have to have a willingness of wanting to change that thing.

Rachel Kourakos: 32:20

And so when you're trying to manage it all, first start with self awareness. Really work to understand yourself so that you can be more conscious and present in all the different things that you're trying to manage at once. And then I think the 3rd piece is is really adopting that mindset of I am already a leader, and I'm either leading myself or leading someone else. And so am I leading in a way that actually cultivates the life and the experience that I wanna have at that, like, bigger existential level, or am I just the winds of all the things around me? And if you feel the latter, which is so normal, especially if you're managing an intense job, kids, lots of different things, whether you are doing that or on the precipice of that, it's about bringing that intentionality and making choices that support you in living how you want to live.

Rachel Kourakos: 33:13

And I think one final thing I'll say on this without going too deep into this topic, which probably for another time, Adam.

Adam Larson: 33:19

Mhmm.

Rachel Kourakos: 33:20

But it's like when I work with people and they feel very much, like, at the whim or kind of, like, victims to their own life, where they're saying, you know, I have a job, and I I have my kids. I have all these things going on, and, you know, it's all crazy, and it's you know, I can't manage it all. One of the stress tests I do, and I wouldn't to be clear, I'm like a certified trained coach, so I can do this very intentionally and hold the space with people in doing this. But one of the stress tests I'll do, I'll say, so quit. And someone will either be like, I can't do that.

Rachel Kourakos: 33:53

No. No. No. I would never quit. But then we understand, okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 33:57

You are choosing to be at this place then. So if you're choosing it, why are you choosing it? What are you trying to accomplish? And so the undertone of, like, stress testing is every single area of our life, both in the things we do, the things we think, the things we feel, is a choice. You are always making a conscious or subconscious choice.

Rachel Kourakos: 34:25

And so when you feel the victim, the way to flip that around is, okay. I'm actually choosing all of this right now. Why? And that's when you start to do some of the work. Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 34:39

Well, I'm choosing this because this gives me security. Alright. So security is important to me. There's a lot of different avenues to security. Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 34:47

You know, I had someone who was really miserable in their partnership, and I said, so get a divorce. And the person said, that feels good. I've also had other people where I've said, so break up with them, and they're like, no, I would never do that. Okay. Then we understand you are choosing this, and if you are choosing this, why and how can we choose differently or create another version of it?

Rachel Kourakos: 35:14

And so I think and I'm I'm not answering your question of, like, the how do how do you manage it all, but to me, that becomes a lot simpler when you start to shift your mindset and your heart set and your soul set to take that deep ownership over your life and your life's experiences. Because once you've done that, the the how to becomes a lot easier because you're a lot more aware of what's going on, and it's no longer a how to guide. Like, it's more about, okay, which parts and why, and, okay, I see this, and I see that this is the part that needs to change in order for me to be more present and more self aware. But you are always choosing how you react to things. You are always choosing your perspective.

Rachel Kourakos: 36:01

It might not feel conscious, but if you feel like a victim, you're choosing to be a victim. And when I say that to people, they're like, no. No. I'm not. I'm like, you are.

Rachel Kourakos: 36:12

And this isn't all about, like, tough love, but it's about breaking that cycle of thinking that allows someone to then take action against the things that they wanna change.

Adam Larson: 36:24

And change is not easy and it's painful. And I think that's why a lot of people haven't done the work to be where we're talking about is because it's not, okay. Here's your 5 step process and it's the same way it works for every single person. It doesn't work that way. Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 36:44

Well, I think I'm gonna catch you, Adam, on it.

Adam Larson: 36:48

Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 36:48

Change can be hard. Change can be painful.

Adam Larson: 36:54

Okay.

Rachel Kourakos: 36:55

And what I did there was I shifted some of the language in your belief, because if you say change is hard and change is painful, of course that's how you're gonna experience it, always. True. But if you say it can be hard, but it can be easy, it can be painless, and it's all about how you see change. And so and so listen. I'm a transition coach.

Rachel Kourakos: 37:20

Like, change is the name of my game. I love change. And it does bring up challenges sometimes because it forces you to reckon with your sense of self, your beliefs about the world. So it's not that it's all willy nilly and, you know, change is like rah rah, even though sometimes I think change is rah rah, but it's kind of one of the beautiful parts about life. And if you can see it that way, and, you know, sometimes when I'm going through a big change or transition and it feels painful, which, by the way, it does sometimes, the the narrative I have is like, oh, we're just in it.

Rachel Kourakos: 37:52

We're in it, and we always come out of it, and this is good. You know what I say to myself sometimes? This is just gonna be a story in your book one day. Even when you're, like, in it and it's horrible, and you're like, oh, man. This is really tough.

Rachel Kourakos: 38:03

I I think, like, this is just gonna be one of those stories. Because in everything that has felt hard in my life and even in my client's life, they come out of it being like, woah. I learned a lot.

Adam Larson: 38:14

Mhmm. So I appreciate you catching me on that. Because as soon as you said that, my mind was, like, wait. There have been changes that haven't been so that haven't been hard. There have been changes.

Adam Larson: 38:24

So it's, like, you have to rethink. Because, automatic, when you think change, you think of the most extreme hardest thing you went through. But even just switching from this doctor to this doctor, that's a change. That's a transition that you have to make. And that can be a very simple process if the systems talk to each other.

Adam Larson: 38:40

And if they don't, then you gotta fill up paperwork, and it's it's annoying, and it's frustrating. But you get it done, and once you're done, you know how to do it. Yeah. You know? So it's it it you every not everything is the extreme moment.

Rachel Kourakos: 38:52

Right. And if you and and the way that you talk to yourself about these things will have a direct impact on how you experience it. So I was with some friends when we were on a trip, and we were in a moment of intense logistics where just, like, everything was sort of not going well.

Announcer: 39:10

Mhmm.

Rachel Kourakos: 39:11

And one of my friends looked at me and goes, we're having fun. Right? And I was like, yes. We're having fun. And then everyone was like, we're having fun.

Rachel Kourakos: 39:19

We're having fun. And we were joking because we were not having fun.

Adam Larson: 39:22

Yeah.

Rachel Kourakos: 39:23

But then we got a little bit silly with it, and then we started to have some fun.

Adam Larson: 39:28

Mhmm.

Rachel Kourakos: 39:29

With change, with things that feel hard, you like, you can say, we're having fun. Or you can say, this change is gonna be easy despite it, like, not. You know you know you're about to endeavor in something big, but bring playfulness into it. Bring this, like, well, what if I thought this was gonna be easier than I thought? What if this is better than I thought?

Rachel Kourakos: 39:50

Because if you can flirt with that, like, what if, an alternative reality that's not pure negative, you then can start to create it. I was coaching a client who, they were going through a breakup, and, like, a week after they broke up with their partner, they're like, I don't really feel that sad, and I feel like I should feel sad. I was like, if you don't feel sad, don't feel sad. That person just had an expectation that it had to be sad. They didn't feel sad.

Rachel Kourakos: 40:28

That's great. So if you're ever gonna say this is gonna be really hard, I want you and anyone who's listening to flirt with the idea of, like, this is gonna be really easy, and you don't have to believe it. Again, I'm not trying to put, like, rainbows and sunshine, but if you can mentally your mind what makes us human is our ability to imagine. So if you're gonna imagine, why are you imagining the worst possible outcome? You are choosing that.

Rachel Kourakos: 40:51

You're choosing to imagine the worst possible outcome. So if you're if you're if you're choosing it, why wouldn't you imagine that it's better than you think? Why wouldn't you imagine that it could be easier than you think? Because if you imagine in that way, your mind and your heart, everything's gonna anchor towards how can I create that versus when you're like, this is gonna be really bad, and then you put it off and you avoid, you're gonna subconsciously create the bad version? And it doesn't mean it ends up being amazing.

Rachel Kourakos: 41:24

It still might be you might say, I imagine the good, and this is really bad. Like, this was worse than I thought. Mhmm. And that's okay, But at least you would then have an alternative reality that is possible, that will be guiding you to work with the part that feels hard and bad. And, by the way, hard and bad is not necessarily a bad thing.

Rachel Kourakos: 41:44

That's a mindset. Pain, being sad, like, those emotions, they all have so much wisdom in them. But most people are so afraid to feel them that they cut it off, and then they just kinda get in this stagnant energetic loop.

Adam Larson: 41:58

Mhmm. They really could. And we could probably talk for another hour about all these grief and grieving things. So

Rachel Kourakos: 42:04

Yeah.

Adam Larson: 42:05

That's for another time. Rachel, thank you so much for coming on. This is a wonderful conversation. I really hope everybody got a lot from it, and, it was just a real pleasure chatting with you today.

Rachel Kourakos: 42:14

Likewise, Adam. Thank you so much for having me. It was really great speaking with you about this.

Announcer: 42:21

This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.