Adam Larson: 00:05

Welcome to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, today we have an exciting episode lined up for you. Our guest is Luke Deca, chief executive officer and founder of Growbots. Luke will share his expertise on the unique challenges that small and medium sized businesses face in outbound sales, especially for accounting firms. In this conversation, Luke dives into the importance of building confidence, understanding ideal customer profile, and how the digital age, including AI, is transforming outreach.

Adam Larson: 00:34

He offers invaluable tips on effective personalization, measuring success, and avoiding common pitfalls. Whether you're looking to enhance your sales strategy or simply curious about the intersection of accounting and sales, this episode is packed with actionable insights. So sit back and get ready to learn. Let's get started.

Adam Larson: 00:56

Well, Luke,

Adam Larson: 00:56

I'm really excited to have you on the Count Me In podcast today. And today, we're gonna be talking about accounting challenges, especially in the small and medium sized business space. And maybe we can start there. What are some of the biggest challenges they face, especially when it comes to things like outbound sales? Because accountants and sales, they're not really the same thing at times.

Luke Deka: 01:12

Yeah. I think, like, you know, the more I think about it, it it is sort of similar what we do, me and, you know, a lot of accounting firms. Because basically sales is also sort of a magic. There are a lot of moving pieces. But you want to make sure you have very, you know, clean strategy, good ICP.

Luke Deka: 01:31

So like, you know what, who is your customer, etcetera. And at the end of the day, accountants should be great at accounting. Right?

Adam Larson: 01:38

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 01:38

Not especially on, you know, prospecting. So I do feel that, you know, just getting into the world is the hardest one. So I would assume that a lot of accountants are just procrastinating. So they are not doing it. Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 01:50

They are, you know, living off, referrals because it's, you know, it's easy, it's convenient, but definitely not the way to scale the business or maybe, you know, catch up with some pipeline whenever Mhmm. Whenever it it is a bit, dry. So I think that the hardest is just starting. So getting enough of this, confidence to to just make it happen.

Adam Larson: 02:12

So you're talking about that confidence. And so how do you get from, hey, I'm an accountant, and I started my own business, or I'm an accountant with an organization. We need to get more people, more customers in. How do you go from, I'm just this, to, hey, I need the confident I have the confidence. How do you take from step 1 to get to the end there?

Luke Deka: 02:28

So I think that the easiest way is to just think about your best customer. Mhmm. Just, you know, like, the best one ever. Like, why exactly is this big? Is it because of the team, the the size of the team?

Luke Deka: 02:41

Is it about the industry they are at? Is it about the stage when they were when you started working with them? So so, you know, like, think about this perfect case study that you have. And then you can before you are reaching into the the high scale, you can just do 1 by 1 outreach. Just start building, you know, the connections.

Luke Deka: 03:00

Don't be afraid of getting nos because you will get a lot of nos.

Adam Larson: 03:04

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 03:05

It's, you know, unfortunately, this is how the sales works, but, you know, it is useful for Mhmm. For life as well, getting a a bit of no's from the customers. So really extrapolating the best fit customer, thinking about what worked, trying to get the connection right. And I think that the most important part about outbound, and a lot of people are doing it wrong, is that they are trying to do business. They are trying to sell with outbound.

Luke Deka: 03:33

And there is very nice saying that is eye opening, I would say, that outbound is about opening, not closing. Mhmm. It's a new way to open the relationship of the company. But if you've from the get go, you think about closing the deal, it's probably not gonna happen. It's about building this pipeline of, you know, opportunities.

Luke Deka: 03:50

At some point, they will come.

Adam Larson: 03:51

So maybe we can take a step back and maybe you can define what do we mean by out bound sales? Because in my mind, you know, I think back at the old days where, you know, you have the grunt worker guys taking a 1,000 cold calls a day trying to just get people on the line. Maybe you can define what you're saying by outbound sales so we can kinda frame the conversation a little bit.

Luke Deka: 04:09

Yeah. I think that, you know, outbound sales is not definitely not a new technique or a new strategy. It's it's been with us for, for a while. So outbound for me is just proactively reaching out to customers. Okay.

Luke Deka: 04:22

So, you know, identifying prospects, identifying right accounts. Who do you want to talk to? Who who is this perfect fit customer for you? And then reaching out to them. And it doesn't matter what channel it is.

Luke Deka: 04:35

Of course, the email is the most scalable and automated one. There is LinkedIn right now that people are using. The cold calling was, you know, announced that probably 10 times in my career already. Mhmm. But it's not that for sure.

Luke Deka: 04:50

So it's still working. So any anything that you Mhmm.

Adam Larson: 04:53

That you

Luke Deka: 04:54

would consider proactively reaching out to, to identified prospect, this is outbound for me.

Adam Larson: 04:58

Okay. Yeah. No. I think that really helps. And in in a digital age now, that it's changed.

Adam Larson: 05:03

Like you said, cold calling has been pronounced dead, even though some people still do it. Like, I still get random cold calls on my phone here at work because I've had the same number for, like, 14 years. I still get random people calling me about things. But, you know, how has that changed in the digital age? And how should we shift our focus, especially in the world of AI and how all that's changing?

Adam Larson: 05:20

How should we shift our focus if we're trying to, you know, reach the specific customers like you've been saying?

Luke Deka: 05:25

Mhmm. Yeah. I think that, you know, AI is definitely opening some some roles, especially for SMBs because, you know, large companies, they have resources to hire salespeople that will do the research, that will, you know, get very accurate in the in the outreach. For SMBs, definitely AI will be a game changer, and there is plenty of tools that are already, you know, helping with that to streamline. But, you know, in digital era per se, I I think that the huge change and the huge movement happened during the COVID times.

Luke Deka: 05:56

I think that, you know, in in the outbound, definitely, there is a pre COVID era where a lot of business was done via trade shows, conferences, then it stopped. So everyone was looking for something digital. Everyone was trying to do a little bit of outbound or, like, going going digital. And, of course, trade shows and conferences are coming back, but outbound stayed. So I think it's, like, you know, it's, like, definitely sped up Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 06:22

In terms of this. And unfortunately, it's also much harder to get somebody's attention. So everyone is getting more and more emails. Everyone is getting more and more Mhmm. You know, LinkedIn messages or or or or cold calls.

Luke Deka: 06:34

So there has to be this, you know, creative way to to stand out.

Adam Larson: 06:38

That makes sense. So how how do you stand out? How do you because I I think one thing that I've heard a lot about, especially in the conversations around AI and how people are reaching out to folks, is personalization. So how do you how do you get to that personalization to the point where somebody will stand out enough to somebody open it? Because, you know, I know people who, if an email says unsubscribe, then they have a rule automatically on subscribing them because they don't wanna see that email.

Adam Larson: 06:58

So how do you get past those things to really get this for us the right people?

Luke Deka: 07:01

Now you need to tell me who these people are. So like, you know, I, I want to make sure that they are not getting this copy, but, Yeah. So, so that's a, you know, that's a great question. And everyone is right now talking about personalization and using these, super fancy AI tools to add this, you know, one liner where, like, where where you are adding some posts on on or maybe someone will be telling you about the podcast episode that we are right now doing. So, like, trying to, you know, to be personal.

Luke Deka: 07:31

But in my opinion, maybe it's in contrary to to, you know, to to where the market is thinking about it is that personalized like, it's much better to do lack of personal like, to to message without personalization. Okay. But the message that is irrelevant for someone. Mhmm. So everyone is trying to do, you know, like personal message.

Luke Deka: 07:50

Like I did your re like research, what university you were at, or what have you posted. But I would think about making message more relevant. So I don't know. Going again to the example of of extrapolating the case study. Let's say that this is a tech business that, you know, just started maybe 2 years old.

Luke Deka: 08:10

There are some challenges, some new things to to set up. This is my, you know, perfect perfect target. I would rather think what are the challenges right now for these businesses. There was, you know, I'm not CPA, so correct me if I'm wrong, but there was a lot of news everywhere online on how they change the rules of how you can amortize amort like, do the amortization of the r and d costs Mhmm. In your tech business.

Luke Deka: 08:34

So I would think, okay. So maybe let's pick the businesses that are in the, you know, tech space. They have more than 10 Mhmm. Software engineers. They are quite fresh and new, so this is very important issue for them.

Luke Deka: 08:46

Mhmm. And I will tell them that I actually fixed something like that. And you can write the message that will be, like, you know, having zero personalization in this, you know, let's say, meaning of getting very about this person, you know, about the post or about the the company. It will be about the the segment of companies that they have some pain, and you identify this pain, and you can actually solve the issue Mhmm. For them.

Luke Deka: 09:12

So I would prefer to do that instead of, you know, adding this one liner that will be, will be the one that worked. I've I've replied to so many bad emails, but they were just right about time of getting into my, you know, inbox. Mhmm. Like, exactly when I wanted to, like, research these kind of solutions or I needed help. Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 09:34

Also, there is one rule that is quite important. And I think that also in the in the accounting space, it will be very, very useful is that we should provide value. So at least if we are, you know, taking some time from someone. Mhmm. Right?

Luke Deka: 09:48

So, you know, someone has to read the email or, like, even triage it, even write unsubscribe or whatever they will do with the email, bring some value. Maybe there is some solution that you can already provide and show your expertise in an email Mhmm. That someone will say, oh, that's interesting. My CPA didn't tell me about that. So, you know, going into that that part, and I would definitely go and use AI to identify this perfect companies, perfect personas within these companies.

Luke Deka: 10:17

Mhmm. But then, you know, with this personalization, I would be I would be worried.

Adam Larson: 10:21

So it's almost like you're personalizing in a different way. You're not Okay Okay.

Luke Deka: 10:33

Because we are picking the, you know, the the group of people that should have similar issues, similar pains.

Adam Larson: 10:39

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 10:40

And we are making the message very relevant for all of them. Usually, like, when experts in the area are talking about personalization, they would say that the email that you are sending to someone cannot be sent to somebody else.

Adam Larson: 10:52

Mhmm. Okay.

Luke Deka: 10:53

So it's so unique that you cannot send it to the to the second prospect. Gotcha.

Adam Larson: 10:57

This is

Luke Deka: 10:57

when, like, personalization would be. But, you know, potato potato, I think, like, it's, like, at the end of the day, you need to get it to work. You need to get someone to open the email and say, yeah, that's interesting, and I want to talk.

Adam Larson: 11:09

I really like that approach because a lot of times you get these emails from marketing companies or somebody's trying to market to you, and it says, you know, hey, Adam. And it, like, tries to do this fun little thing, and then the rest of it's like their marketing message. But if you don't get past that first section, sometimes that part does turn me off. I I and I can understand it might turn other people off as well. Sometimes it makes me laugh because they do they do cute little kitschy things that get you interested, but then you read the rest of the email, you're like, oh, this is just the marketing thing, and you might delete it.

Adam Larson: 11:37

But it's really it's you need to hit somebody where, like, you know, like different changes in accounting laws or different changes in how you you know, when the revenue recognition changes came along for accountants, for all all, you know, small, medium sized business to large businesses, they had to fix those things. So you had to you have to reach those people where they are. So I think that's a great way of doing that. And have you found that effective? And are there any examples you can share of, you know, how you're able to do that and help businesses grow?

Luke Deka: 12:02

Mhmm. Yeah. I think that, you know, that's the that's exactly the way how how we would, you know, go for it. Like, we well, we identify the best case scenarios Mhmm. And then we are identifying the pains within this, this target target group and making the the solution, you know, scalable.

Luke Deka: 12:21

Mhmm. With the accounting, it's also very often the numbers game. Mhmm. Because, you know, at the end of the day, especially in, you know, helping SMBs, you need to get to the certain number of people that, that some of them, there would be really good timing to consider switching. Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 12:39

So, also, we all like, you know, we always think about that that when somebody is really in the SMB space, it's like of of course, with Outbound, you cannot really measure intent of this person. You can only assume the intent. So, you know, you get you need to get to 1,000, but we, you know, we do have customers in in this in the in the space that are just finding it very, very effective. At the end of the day, I do believe that everyone at some point is considering switching accountings or, like, try like, thinking, oh, yeah. Like, you know, something was not, like, super 100% yes.

Luke Deka: 13:16

I will just, you know, see what's, you know, what's out there. Mhmm. And you being in that moment at that time, of course, it's, you know, it's not that easy to to get there. But if you get there, then, you know, then you get the client. So and also what you mentioned is very important, and not every single industry have this opportunity Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 13:36

To use it because there is this framework of reaching out to people in this, let's say, mode that you want to your get your message to answer 2 questions. Why you Mhmm. And why you now? Yeah. And the thing is that usually this why you now is very hard to get.

Luke Deka: 13:50

Mhmm. Because you don't know what's the, you know, what's the business like, what's the business state is in. But in accounting and a lot of regulated business, like, when there is a new tax relief in California or there are some, you know, changes in this particular business, something new is coming up. This is your trigger. This is YU now, and and these messages are are are highly effective.

Adam Larson: 14:13

Yeah. I like that just focusing on YU now. And it's and then maybe that's how you get through. And I think the other thing to remember about the outbound side of things is that there's a big funnel that you're creating and not everybody's gonna connect with it. So you have to make sure there's a big wide enough reach so that you can get those individual thing.

Adam Larson: 14:30

And how do you kind of overcome that thing? Because it's not the easiest for everybody to do this, and to create this. And so, you know, whether it's working with an organization like yours or trying to get your internal team to do that, what's the best way to connect to get yourself started? Let's say you're a SMB and you wanna really get an outbound sales things going. What's the first steps to start taking?

Luke Deka: 14:49

Yeah. So, like, there is so many, you know, tools out there to to to put things on autopilot. Mhmm. You know, maybe it's actually a good idea to start with these. They are, like, pretty inexpensive, but then you can test it and you can see, hey.

Luke Deka: 15:03

You know what? Actually, I might need someone full time to, you know, start thinking about my strategy, about my messaging, and all of that Mhmm. All of that things. And then you probably get to, you know, to somewhere, like, or the business, like, similar to mine where we just connect this product that is, highly automated with, like, we call it concierge service, but basically someone that will take care of the strategy and and and, and execution. And we feel that this is, you know, the the fastest way to, you know, test it

Adam Larson: 15:34

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 15:34

Because you already you don't need to make your own mistakes Mhmm. Because you have people here that made all of these mistakes before. So, you know, that's, that's usually the the best way, but I also get that that very often you would like to try yourself. Mhmm. And there are so many tools that will, you know, identify email account or, you know, phone number of of someone or really filter out the the target persona, like, even using LinkedIn Sales Navigator.

Luke Deka: 16:02

And then, going going after these these prospects in less automated way, in less scalable way. But just trying it out, just seeing, you know, what's out there, there's definitely a lot on the market.

Adam Larson: 16:14

Are there red flags that people should look out for when they're getting into this? Because, you know, obviously, they can work with a company like yours or they can try it out their own with some of the steps that you outlined. But are there red flags that they should look out for when they're getting started that they should say, hey, if you start seeing this, shift directions.

Luke Deka: 16:29

Yeah. So I a lot of times, I hear that, you know, someone saw some other organization that was sending Mhmm. Tens of thousands of emails and is saying, yeah. Yeah. Now is the moment I want to send 50,000 emails a month.

Luke Deka: 16:45

I've never done that before, but here is I bought this database of 500,000 Mhmm. Business owners, and I want to reach out to them. Yeah. So that's probably not the greatest idea. Usually these databases are the I I would call them a little bit stale.

Luke Deka: 17:01

You know, the emails are Mhmm. Incorrect. And, what you can do to your business is actually make all of your outgoing emails to your clients go to spam because you will be hitting the, you know, spam filters. Mhmm. So when I'm saying that you should try yourself only if this is we are talking about, like, reasonable small scale, like reaching out to, like, 200 Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 17:25

Maybe to 500 people. This is when you can probably do it yourself. Whenever you want to go in 1,000 Mhmm. Probably it's not the smartest idea to start with 50,000, But also, you need some experts to set up some infrastructure for that, maybe going with, like, creating some separate domains, especially for for that project. So so there are things that, you know, you need to you need to be careful because you can create more harm Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 17:49

That actually help your business. So this is the thing that I would be really, you know, highlighting here that that this is the this is a no go. Like, you know, whenever you want to send more than 1,000 emails, just talk to someone that has done that before, and they will tell you if you are doing it right. Yeah. So that's, you know

Adam Larson: 18:07

I like that because, you know, like you said, you see somebody else you're, you know, a a competitor of you're sending 50,000. You're like, oh, I have to do the same thing. But like you said, it might not be the best thing to start off there. Or you might need a partner to do it right so you don't end up in spam. Yeah.

Adam Larson: 18:21

How do you measure success? Because, you know, obviously, success is sales at the end the end of the day, like getting the getting the sale. But how do you measure success when you're doing these types of campaigns?

Luke Deka: 18:30

Yeah. So so you you mentioned that there is a funnel. Mhmm. Like, you know, you have the the number of prospects that you contacted. In SMB, it's usually equal to, you know, number of leads that you are reaching out to, like number of accounts.

Luke Deka: 18:44

Right? So Mhmm. But very often, you want to also measure your conversion on the company level. Right? In the b to b space, we you know, if we know that this company is a great fit, maybe we want to reach out to CFO, COO, and CEO.

Luke Deka: 18:56

Right? So, you know, get from from, you know, all of the angles. So at the end of the funnel, of course, there is sale. Mhmm. Even more, it's renewal.

Luke Deka: 19:05

It's actually the lifetime value of the client because that's the beauty of outbound is that you can pick the customers. With content, it's not so easy. With referrals, you are rather than getting, you know, whoever is someone knows. So with outbound, that's actually beautiful that you can pick the right target. Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 19:21

So if you know that with this customer, you are just, you know, having huge success, you know, that they will be renewing forever or even buying more services that you have. This is the, like, let's say the end of the funnel. Mhmm. And of course, there are steps to go there. As I mentioned, we are not talking about closing from the from the beginning.

Luke Deka: 19:39

So very often, you need to think it about this as a as a pipeline of not now opportunities. Mhmm. Because someone will tell you maybe right away, not now, or maybe after the presentation of your business, they will tell you, you know what? That's not a good time. And but these people are still in your pipeline.

Luke Deka: 19:57

They still should be in this kind of long term pipeline. In 2 years or one and a half year, or maybe even sooner, you want to reach out to them and say, hey, do you remember we chatted 1 and a half year ago? Back then, you didn't consider switching. Right now, like, you know, over this 15, 16 months, we helped 5 other, like, businesses to, you know, reach this level of savings and taxes. So there are, you know, plenty of ways to just make every month count, even if you are not getting new fresh contacts into the, into the machine.

Luke Deka: 20:32

So definitely, you know, lifetime value, there is conversations that you are having with people. And there are more of the I still think there are more vanity metrics, like open rates or, you know, reply rates per se. They will tell you more about it, you know, deliverability of your emails, but they shouldn't be prioritizing because, you know, if 100% people of people are seeing your messages and nobody is replying positively, then something is wrong. Right? So Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 21:01

So definitely not prioritize these ones.

Adam Larson: 21:03

Does it take time to kind of build up that success story that you just talked about? You know, because when you start these campaigns, you might not see that those successes right away because these type these relationships take time to build.

Luke Deka: 21:15

Yes. Of course. So, you know, at the end of the day, that's so interesting about outbound is that a lot of people are expecting, and I I don't blame them. It it seems like so straightforward that I will send, you know, 1,000 emails. I will get so many, you know, conversation, and I will, you know, close so many deals.

Luke Deka: 21:32

That's so easy. Mhmm. But at the end of the day, it takes time. Mhmm. Because, again, it's from on one hand, it's statistics.

Luke Deka: 21:40

But on another hand, it's much harder to close an outbound lead than referral lead. Mhmm. It's just, you know, completely different percentages of people that will buy from you. So you need more meetings. You need to get, you know, better at explaining what to do, how you are different from what they have already, how you are going to solve their pains.

Luke Deka: 21:59

So there is a lot of, a lot of that into them, into the funnel. So I would say that, you know, 3 to 6 months is actually minimal to even see if this is if this is going somewhere. Of course, if you send the emails and you don't get anything over 3 months, probably it's not working. But if you are getting some conversation, but you are frustrated that there was no deal Mhmm. You know, it's not done yet.

Luke Deka: 22:25

Sometimes for for the first deal, you need to wait, you know, 6 months. And and hopefully, this deal will, you know, end up paying for the entire program.

Adam Larson: 22:33

Mhmm. That's yeah. That's gonna be hard if you're not getting so what if what if that happens, you start off your program and you're not getting any responses? Do you adjust your messaging? Like, do you go back to the drawing board?

Luke Deka: 22:43

Oh, of course. Of course. And of course. Mhmm. So, like, we like, when we are working with customers, we are starting with, you know, 2 or 3 campaigns even

Adam Larson: 22:51

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 22:51

From the get go to touch. And, you know, we we call our 1st 3 months proof of concept period where we are trying to find the winning formula. So we hope at the end of 3 months, we will know what are the conversion rates Mhmm. On each step of this kind of outbound funnel. So how many positive responses we can get in each campaign, how many more people we can contact in these campaigns.

Luke Deka: 23:16

And then we can finally tell you, hey. Like, this is you know what? If we contact 1,000 people, we will get you, 15 or 20 conversations. Mhmm. And then you need to reverse engineer that.

Luke Deka: 23:29

Is it really working against my lifetime value of the customer if they bring me, you know, 20 conversations a month? So there sending one campaign and praying that it will it will get some, sending one campaign and praying that it will it will get some, replies because we are doing it for 10 years. And we we kinda know a thing or 2 about writing, messages. And we very often fail with the first campaign. Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 23:56

Because we have this brilliant idea. Yeah. This would be, you know, this would be the game changer. We will get this target. We will get this, you know, union value proposition.

Luke Deka: 24:04

They don't respond. Mhmm. And we need to reiterate. So it's always about some some iteration. Definitely, it's very hard to get, you know, to get it with the first shot.

Adam Larson: 24:13

It reminds me of, like, not everybody knows the amount of failures it took for, you know, Edison to make the first light bulb or somebody to make their the this great invention. They don't see all the different failures that it took to make the the big great thing that everybody remembers them for.

Luke Deka: 24:26

Yes.

Adam Larson: 24:27

And it it kinda reminds the same thing with sales is, like, your first campaign not be a success, but your 3rd, 4th, and 5th might your 3rd, 4th, and 7th one might be a great success or whatever. It's building upon those things that you learn each time.

Luke Deka: 24:38

Yeah. And it's, you know, it's beautiful. So, like, I remember one of the one of the clients, like, very often we, you know, we get rid of, this kind of, like, negative messages or, like, you know, we Mhmm. We don't want to read them, but actually what we are remember one client that was doing some consulting in the CRM space. You know, I remember one client that was doing some consulting in the CRM space, and, people were responding to him.

Luke Deka: 25:08

Hi. We use Salesforce already. So they didn't understand that they are doing Salesforce consulting. Mhmm. They thought that they are another CRM.

Adam Larson: 25:17

Mhmm.

Luke Deka: 25:17

So, you know, it is helping you to adjust the message. So somebody Mhmm. Will get what you are doing and what's the challenge you're trying to solve. So also, you know, very often at the beginning, this is just a learning good. Like like, with everything.

Luke Deka: 25:31

Mhmm. Just let's be honest. You know, we cannot expect to just go and be, you know, gold medalist in our old month.

Adam Larson: 25:38

Exactly. Exactly. It takes time to build up that that knowledge and that expertise. And as you have with your organization, you know, if you listen to the first podcast I ever recorded, you know, I wouldn't recommend it. But if you wanna see the difference from where I was then and I am now, you know, there's you learn a lot as you go along the way with everything that we do.

Adam Larson: 25:54

So it takes practice, like you just said.

Luke Deka: 25:56

Yeah.

Adam Larson: 25:56

Yeah. Well, Luke, I really appreciate you sharing your expertise with our audience today. I really hope folks in the space have learned something a thing or 2 and reach out if they want to learn more. Check out the, links in our show notes, and, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Luke Deka: 26:08

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me.

Announcer: 26:12

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