< Intro >

– Welcome back to another
episode of Count Me In.

I'm your host, Adam Larson,

and today we have a fantastic
guest joining us, Andrew Jamison,

CEO and co-founder of Extend.

A fintech platform that
enables virtual card

and spend management
capabilities for small businesses.

We'll be exploring how small
to medium-sized businesses

can leverage these innovative solutions,

to reshape the financial landscape.

Andrew will share valuable insights
on the importance of embracing

fintech technologies and how they
can drive efficiency and growth.

From the power of data and open APIs,

to the role of big partners
in mitigating risks.

Andrew will guide us through the
key factors and success stories

of implementing fintech solutions.

Plus, we'll explore the future of AI,
and machine learning, and finance,

and the skills finance
professionals should cultivate

for continued relevance.

So, let's get started.

< Music >

Andrew, I'm so glad to have you on
the Count Me In podcast, today.

We're excited to have you here, and
we're going to be talking about fintech,

and different solutions, especially,

in the realm of small to
medium-sized businesses.

And just to jump right in,

how do you think that the
fintech solutions are reshaping

the financial landscape, especially for
small and medium-sized businesses?

And why is it crucial for them
to embrace these technologies?

– Look, I think we're continuing down
a really exciting journey, actually.

Where the prevalence of data, and the
ability and accessibility of technology

means that we're finding more
and more verticalized solutions.

Which helps on two fronts;

one, on the one hand, it means if I'm
very specific in the industry that I serve.

I start to have a solution that actually
talks to me, specifically, in my industry.

And I think the ability for people to
access that technology means that

you now have more and
more independent developers,

who are exploring how these
open APIs can be used, leveraged,

and really brought together to create
solutions that are increasingly targeted,

at the different functions that we work in.

So I think that crossroad we're there,

and it's only going to explode
from here, in my mind.

– It's definitely going to explode.

You see the different technology is
getting more and more accessible.

But sometimes it's harder when you're
in a small to medium-sized business.

Sometimes you're an accounting
department of one, or two,

or three people, and it's harder

to implement some
different types of technology.

What advice would you give to
somebody trying to look into it,

saying, "Hey, I want to jump into this,

but I may not have the budget
that bigger organizations have?"

– Look, what I look at small companies,

they want to do more with what they have.

And they're trying to abstract away
the complexity because, you're right,

I look at our team, we're a
team of 80 odd employees.

And the reality is I have one VP of finance,

and he's only just now gone
and hired his right-hand person.

And the reality is that
they're jacks of all trade.

They're AP, they're AR, they're, essentially,

all your cash flow management, and
they do all your recording, all in one.

So if I sit down, specifically, with him,

it's really all about seeing how they can
leverage existing software for longer.

How do you abstract away some of the
challenges with some of the software

that you might have, as you
start growing as a business.

How do you leverage other solutions,

which are just embedded
with those solutions,

so that you don't have to go
through a massive transformation?

Well, I'll give you a great example,
and that's Graham Stanton's Avise.

His whole thesis is all about lots
of businesses use QuickBooks,

and then quickly you grow up,
if you're a successful company.

But do you really want to make the next
step to the next enterprise solution?

Which, actually, costs a disproportionate

amount of money more, relative to
the benefits that you're going to get

from them in the early years.

So there's always that, healthy
tension, but we're starting to see

more and more people focus
on the abstraction piece.

Keep the ledger the way it is,

and then just start adding
solutions over the top that help me

run my business more efficiently.

– I like that, adapt it to what
works for you, as opposed to

maybe doing a whole ERP system
that may be too much money

or too much of a spend for you.

– Yes, and, again, finance team of one,

I came out of the exact
polar opposite world.

The first 10 years of my
career were in deploying SAP.

So right at the enterprise resource
planning side of the equation,  

and just a completely different beast, in
terms of the different types of people 

that you had to go and engage with.

And also just the number of departments

that you got to engage with.

Therefore, the resources
that were required,

just to keep the engine
running for that platform

were just completely different.

– Now, we can't talk about
moving to different technologies  

without talking about things like
fraud, and just the risk there.

And especially if you're a smaller
department, or a partner of one,

like in your case, there are two people.

How do you protect against hackers

or different things, different emerging
threats, especially, in the fraud space,

especially, if you're a
medium-sized business?

– Look, I think you have to 
rely on the bigger partners.

You can work, certainly, to
continue to enhance your solutions.

But you do have to lean on
some of the bigger partners.

We lean on, certainly,
on the AWS infrastructure

to help us there because they have
so much more money to plow into this. 

Now, obviously, they're a
bigger target than we are.

But they also have way more
resources to help plug those gaps.

So in our mind, it's also two things;

one is it's not really about if, 
it's when, it's going to happen.

And, then, it's really about
how do you mitigate it

in terms of relying on these partners. 

Now, clearly, cybersecurity,

whether it's through an
encryption or authentication.

I think lot of work
continues to be done there.

And I think we all experience it,

in the consumer world,
which is more and more of it

has to be done through biometrics,
it has to be done with MFA,

and, sometimes, it has
to be done through both.

And I think we need to continue
and go down that path,

and that's not going to change either.

I think that's where more and more
resources are going to get plowed in,

especially, if you're in the fintech space.

We're dealing with money.

We're dealing with the
lifeblood of companies.

And, as a result of it,
we have to be doubly sure

to make sure that those threats
are mitigated as best we can.

– So you've already talked about having
threats and relying on third parties.

Are there any other key features
that these types of businesses

should look for, when they're
looking into different solutions?

– The one thing I've learned
is one-size doesn't fit all.

You have to look at what is the
primary tool that people are using.

Is it mobile?

In which case you have
access to certain tools.

Is it web?

In which case you have
access to different tools.

And you have to marry
them all together as well,

and to sort of create one overall solution. 

So, for me, it's also having
the ability to look at things

through those different lenses.

And, again, when I look at our business,
where we are helping to promote

existing credit cards in circulation

through partners like American Express,

or Regions Bank, or Pacific West Bank.

Where we're promoting people who
can use their existing credit card.

Now, there is an underlying
piece that comes with that.

Which is I, specifically, want to leverage

the infrastructure of
these big bank players,

without having to repeat it
and replicate it for ourselves.

Why? Because they have
way more data points

than we could ever hope to have.

And really that's why leveraging
that infrastructure in the back end,

creates that additional layer of security.

– It really does create
that extra layer of security

because you're relying on people who
may have the bigger infrastructure,

to build in those things that you
might be unable to build yourself

as not a bigger company.

– I think there's two parts, everyone
can go out and build anything.

And what I've learned through
my time, with big companies,

like the 12 years I was
in American Express.

You can always start a project,

the real thing is it really
the core of your business.

And if it isn't, you have to ask
yourself that difficult question of,

"Yes, I can build the best mousetrap
for today, and maybe tomorrow.

But what about the day after that,

and the month after that,
and the year after that?

Because we know how budgets
operate in these companies.

It's, essentially, every year you go back

with a cup in hand, and you
try and secure a budget.

And, then, essentially, you go
into some sort of a recession

or some sort of a cutback, and
there's budget gets constrained

and suddenly you're no longer
investing in that piece of business.

And it's amazing how quickly
you fall off being best in class

if you don't invest in solutions, today.  

I think that's the other thing

to be really wary of is you
have to be mindful of that,

to double down on areas that you are
truly going to commit to, as a business,

because otherwise you're going
to go through these cycles.

And I think that's where
maybe large companies today

are placing more emphasis on
their partnerships with fintechs. 

They're embracing fintech

because I think they've
realized that trying to compete,

in that world, sometimes,
isn't good for them either.

It distracts them from their core.

They don't move as quick
as they would want to move.

And they certainly can't experiment
as quick as they would want to

because they have all these
different layers of approvals.

And then the bigger challenge still is

it's not just about the layers of approvals,

It's the fact you start spreading
across lines of business

and, maybe, you don't have experience

in that particular segment. 

And, so, you make mistakes in
thinking that consumers work,

maybe, the same way as large corporate.

And you're not actually, again,
identifying the right solution

for that particular client segment
that you're trying to serve.

– Yes, so we know that implementing
these applications and partnering

with different companies,
ultimately, saves you money.

It might not save it right up front,

there's a little bit of investment
involved, but over time,

it'll definitely save you money.

Are there any real world success stories

or examples that you can share,

of where people have implemented
this and really seen a huge change?

– Look, I mean, that's part of
the journey that we're on.

Which is we deal with
a lot of finance teams

and the word we keep hearing
day after day, month after month,

is this wonderful word
called reconciliation,

and that's what eats time.

It's, essentially, you have approved
something somewhere down the line,

either verbally or through
a technology system,

and then you have to marry
it up with a payment.

And, so, that aspect of things,
and we talked to a lot of clients

who used to have all these charges
appear on one central bill product.

And, so, at the end of the month, they'd
have this huge list of transactions

and they'd be like, "Right, 
now, I got to allocate them."

And the reality is this is 
happening over weekends.

And, so, it's sort of like, "Great,
you've given me my life back."

Which is if you're automating hundreds
and hundreds of these transactions

back to these digital records,
that happen upstream.

Then, truly, not only are
you creating efficiencies

and allowing people to do more
with the time that they have,

I think, you're also taking away
some pretty mundane tasks,

and that, to me, is the key. 

And, there's, obviously, a lot being
discussed around AI and all this.

And I'm like, "AI is not new;

it's been around for decades,
it's just got a new name."

And, for me, it's more about the
application of that information

in such a way that we'll see
the lowest hanging fruit,

and the earliest benefits, will really come

in that automation of
back office functions.

Things, frankly, that don't need
or warrant a person to be doing

and can be done just as well, and,
sometimes, better by a machine. 

And I think that's where I get excited

is like, imagine if you can get away
from really 30, 40, 50% of tasks,

that are super mundane and not strategic,

and let's focus on some
more interesting problems.

So that, essentially, we can
really move the needle forward.

Because there's a lot of
green pasture out there,

of things that need to be moved
forward for businesses.  

And, so, it'd be much more fun to spend
our time tackling those challenges,

than some of these mundane tasks,

that these different teams and functions

have to perform either on a
daily, weekly, or monthly basis.

– Yes, it seems the rise 
of machine learning and AI,

I mean, like you said, it's
been around for years.

It's definitely coming to everybody's
worldview with the Chat GPT,

and generative AI kind of things.

With those things coming to a head

and really changing how
the finance team looks.

What are skills and things that
people can do, maybe, the people

who are running those tasks?

Let's say you're listening to this podcast,

and you're one of those people
doing those mundane tasks

you were talking about.

What can they start doing right now
to make sure that they're relevant

as they go forward, in the future?

– Look, I think it's all about
having an inquisitive mind,

and it's all about what's the next
challenge you're trying to solve for.

And I think you always try and pick
out these needles in a haystack,

and the machines will do that.

– And, "Do I see these same
transactions happening twice?

I don't have to write a report,
I can just ask the machine

and it, essentially, starts 
returning these things."

And I think those are things
that become really meaningful

to businesses, is help me pick
those needles out of the haystack.

That in the past, I would have had to go

and write some report
to go and pull back.

And guess what?

Writing a report takes resources.

All of a sudden, it's like, "Well, I can't do
that either because those resources

are allocated something else. 

So if you can, essentially,

and that's the beauty of
having a conversational AI,

is, yes, of course, it has
to be programmed.

The reality is it continues to learn
and evolve, and you can fine tune it,

and then you can adapt
it to different scenarios.

And, so, you can start asking different
questions of the machine and it, again,

continues to improve, over time.

And I think we've already
seen with chat bots,

that servicing is increasingly
coming through machines,

except we all know dead-end
pretty quickly, even today,

and that's always more frustrating.

At which point you pick up the phone

and rage and say, "I want 
to speak to a human being."

And, then, depending on
who the company is,

it's either easier or harder
to get a hold of an individual. 

But I think that's where it's going
to help, is help me service myself

because that's another big thing.

Even as a department, when you
hit these different challenges,

it's all about I want to be
able to service this myself.

And I think that's really the key,
and I think that's where fintechs  

have also helped a lot, which
is help me unearth things

which are just not in an obvious place.

And, so, we spend a lot of time as,
essentially, we have digital credit cards

flowing through the ecosystem.

The beauty really of these digital credit
cards is you actually append them

with metadata, along the journey,
which is what department someone in.

Then you start figuring out
what business unit they're in

or you start to figure out
what's the expense category.

And all these things can be automated,

when you start pulling
together different things. 

And I think then it's going to
become even more interesting,

as we go down the line.

Because you're really going
to be able to pull together

these different data points to get insights,

around what's really happening
with the health of the business. 

I think that's why I also like this
marrying up of old and new.

Because that also means you don't
have to go and rebuild everything.

There's access to these data points
and huge piece of information,

that you get through the existing banks.

And now it's about, "Great,
I can use their information,

and I can enhance that information,

and I can then send it back

to the corporate who can
update their ledgers directly."

And a lot of this manipulation

was made available to the
Fortune 500, Fortune 1000.

And there were big projects that they
had to go and pay for, mind you.

But the reality is now more of
this is becoming accessible

to small businesses, and
I think that level of automation

and insights is really going
to help them move forward.

– It really is, because, you
mean, you go back in the day

where you had to categorize, have
a category for each transaction,

and make sure you do those things.

If people were using the QuickBooks,

back in the day, but having, like
you said, the embedded metadata.

Being able to have that automatically,

you can automatically
start tracking those things.

And it allows you to move
faster and analyze better.

And as leaders in the organizations,

they have to rethink how
they're leading their team.

Because you're no longer looking
at the little mundane tasks,

but you're able to do those
more strategic decisions,

like you were saying.

– And I also the idea of more
real-time data flowing in.

And if I'm a finance
person, that's what I want

is real-time transactional
information and data.

So I know what's coming down the pike

or, essentially, how I'm trying to
manage the existing cost base. 

And I certainly was in a company
where we grew really fast,

but we were on a route
to going to doing an IPO.

And I remember, very distinctly,

the CFO saying, "The
hardest thing to control

is all these incidental expenses
that keep rolling through."

So, again, how do you manage?

How do you pull the different
levers, as a finance person?

To make sure that people have
the right tools in their hands,

so they can go and spend
when they need to spend.

But, actually, it's been
approved ahead of time.

And not only is it approved ahead
of time, for a very specific thing,

but it's actually got all the metadata

that says once it happens, the
chapters close, no need to revisit.

It's essentially flowed all the way through. 

And that, to me, is what finance
folks are really looking for.

It's give me the chance to opine
on something ahead of time,

and let's work together to make sure
that it has all the information needed.

So that it then flowed through the
system, and we just look at it once.

– Yes, and if you just watch TV,

you see commercials for these
things just to consumers.

Like, "Hey, sign for this app
and it'll tell you all your bills,

and you can clean up your stuff."

If we're making it available for consumers,

that means small to
medium-sized businesses

are going to have better access
to these types of softwares.

– Yes, I look at the coming together

of finance and procurement, and
things like Glean are out there,

also, really helping, as solutions

really sort of focus in on what
you're buying is it competitive?

And all of those different
things come into play.

And I think that becomes also great tools

for all about providing insights to
these small finance departments,

and really help them operate
at a much higher level

than they were operating beforehand.

– Yes, so as we look toward the future,
where do you think we're going?

Where are the new technologies
going to hit and how are things

going to improve, as we look
five to 10 years in the future?

– So, look, I take a lot of learnings
from my days, certainly, at SAP.

And that's to say that
when you really look at it,

and the amount of effort I
feel they put into HANA,

and to all these different
things, it's all about data.

And, so, their primary concern,  

I'm guessing here, was we just
need to be the source of data,

the ledger, the source of truth,
and we'll facilitate other things.

And what started off as EDI is now APIs,

and then we're going to layer
on top of that some of these

more conversational components of it.

But what I'm learning through that
and what I'm taking away from that is,

there isn't a huge appetite for companies

to move from one ledger to the next.

And that's partly because the
ledger is the ledger, is the ledger.

Now, obviously, if it can be
done in real time, it helps. 

But the reality is it's really what you
do with that data there and then.

And I like the idea that a lot
of these legacy players,

and financial service, obviously,
is one of those players,

it has a lot of legacy
infrastructure in there.

Is really going to get updated really fast,

and integrated and embedded
faster into the software solutions

that finance people are using,
or procurement people are using.

Because, essentially, they're
going to focus on that last mile

and we're not really there, yet.

I think when it comes to data,

a lot of work has happened with
companies pulling data out of ERPs.

But obviously the really hard
bit is pushing data into ERPs.

Why? Because if I'm a finance person,

I want to see those things before
you go and update my ledgers.

So I think there's still a lot of work
to be done on that particular front,

in terms of great, pull data.

And, again, commercially,
people have pulled data.

Why? Because it helps with underwriting.

But then we've learned that underwriting

is really, actually, quite tough, as well.

You look at some of the decisions
that some of the emerging credit card

in the commercial space made around
no longer supporting small business.

Why? Because in an economic downturn,

the reality is it's small
business that suffers,

and that's where losses have suffered.

And, so, some people made the
decision to walk away from there.

Now, the interesting thing is that's
where banks have played for years,

and that's where they've learned, and
they have other sources of information,

and data to go and
support right businesses,

the regular mom-and-pop
businesses that are out there.

Because not everything is about
fintech, it's the real world, too.

And america runs on small business,

and Milburn and
Dunkin' Donuts, apparently,

but that's a different thing.

But that's kind of, in my mind,

where things are going to get
really much more interesting,

is really helping to deliver on the promise,

to facilitate the world of the office of
the CFO in these smaller companies.

Where, essentially, there's more
control, but the integration is better

in terms of flowing data and
information into the systems.

And the systems that have
been put over the top of them,

to make sure that they
don't lose that metadata,

and they can report that metadata or
use it for conversational AI, et cetera.

– Definitely, well, Andrew,

I really appreciate you
coming on the podcast.

This has been really insightful
conversation, and thanks so much

for sharing your insights
with our audience, today.

– No, absolutely, Adam.

Thank you for having me on the
podcast, I enjoyed the conversation.

< Outro >

– This has been Count
Me In, IMA's podcast,

providing you with the latest
perspectives of thought leaders,

from the accounting
and finance profession.

If you like what you heard,
and you'd like to be counted in

for more relevant accounting
and finance education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.