< Intro >

– Welcome back to Count Me In.

In today's episode, we have a special
guest joining us, Paul McManus.

To discuss the power of personal branding
for accounting and finance professionals.

Paul is a podcast host, the author
of the book The Short Formula,

and the co-founder and CEO
of More Clients More Fun.

We'll explore why personal branding is
crucial in today's competitive landscape,

and how it can elevate your
status as an expert in your field.

Paul, an accomplished author, with
multiple bestsellers on Amazon,

will share his insights
on how creating a book

can enhance your personal brand
and establish you as a thought leader.

We'll also touch upon the challenges
professionals face when approaching

the idea of writing a book
and how to overcome them.

Let's get started.

< Music >

Paul, I want to thank you so much
for coming on the podcast, today.

We're really excited to talk
about personal branding

and becoming better versions of
ourselves through that type of work.

And, maybe, we can start off

by talking about why things
like personal branding are,

especially, important for today's
accounting and finance professional.

– Definitely, thank you for having
me, I appreciate being here.

I think personal branding
is one of the things,

whether you're a small business owner,

or whether you work
at a firm, as a professional.

At the end of the day, when
you're growing your business,

or whether you're looking for promotions
and to make a bigger impact in your world.

Nothing, well, not nothing, but personal
branding can be one of those things

that help you differentiate
yourself from everybody else.

One of the ways that I, primarily,
focus on to help professionals

with their personal branding is to
help them write and publish a book.

Which I know is something, again,
I talk to a lot of financial professionals

and I ask them if they've
considered it, and many have.

But it just seems like one
of those daunting tasks

that it's on someone's bucket list,
but they never quite get to.

So, as part of the personal
branding question that you asked,

I'd love to deep dive, as appropriate, into
how a book can really help accountants,

and other finance professionals really
take their personal brand to the next level.

– Yes, definitely, when you
think about writing a book,

some people think, "Oh, no, I have
to write this thousand-page book,

and it's going to take six
years, ten years of my life.

But if anybody has looked
at the show notes for this event,

if they've looked at what you do.

They've seen you written multiple books
and they've been on Amazon bestseller.

So how does creating that book

really enhance your personal
brand and elevate your status?

– Yes, writing a book is one of those things

that has a long history that people respect.

I think there's really two things
that help professionals stand out.

One is writing a book,
another is public speaking.

There is the old quip from Jerry Seinfeld

on the public speaking side
that if you're at a funeral;

would you rather be giving
the eulogy or be in the casket?

And the joke was, well, most people
would rather be in the casket

because they're terrified
of public speaking.

But I think just the act of getting up
and speaking in front of people,

is just one of those things that most
people are afraid of, and so they respect.

It's the same thing for writing a book.

It's something that just in our culture,

there's a tremendous respect for
someone who's put in the work,

done the work, and who has
written and published a book.

Because it's one of those things
that really differentiate yourself

from everybody else in the field.

It's one of those things that
people think about, talk about,

and more often than not, never do.

And there's a variety of benefits to doing
it, personal branding be one of them,

which we can go deeper on.

And, then, there's also a variety of reasons
why people never take that action.

So, on the plus side, we want
to be clear about why do it.

There's a great Simon Sinek talk about

begin with why, and when your why is clear,

then, you get that much more clear
on the motivation and the how.

And, so, let's talk about the why, from
a multiple ways to think about it.

So, again, if you are one of those
professionals that does any work

in the capacity, as a business owner.

So let's say maybe you're a fractional
CFO and you're looking to attract clients.

Let's say that you work
with clients themselves

and, maybe, what you do is
more difficult to understand.

The ability to articulate your core
knowledge through a book,

way that is interesting and
simplifies it to an outside audience.

Especially an outside audience of
non-experts, is a very powerful way

simply to communicate.

I find that writing a book,
it's a personal growth endeavor.

Oftentimes you start with a blank page

and you think, "Okay, what
do I know about this topic?"

And after a few minutes,
you're like, "Oh, that's it."

And, so, you have to say, "Wait a
minute, I know more than this."

And it really challenges you to
think about what you know,

and why is that important,
and who's interested in that.

How can you communicate
that in a way that's effective?

How can you use stories?

Oftentimes, especially, with accountants
and other finance professionals,

what I find is that there's a lot of jargon.

There's a lot of technical terms.

There's a lot of things that
they understand implicitly

through experience and study,
but for a non-expert, they get lost.

And, so, it's how do you
communicate ideas in such a way

that is relatable to whomever
you're speaking to?

And, so, throughout that process,

and we talked about personal branding
a little bit, but it really helps you

create leadership skills, communication
skills, and those things all come together.

And, so, whether you're looking
to sell more, get a promotion,

or simply be more effective at your job.

The act of writing and publishing a book

is an amazing vehicle to help
supercharge those efforts.

– Mm, yes, it's interesting
because when you think about it,

if you don't know how to
explain what you're doing.

If you don't know how to
articulate it in a very good way.

How can you be that storyteller,
be that business partner?

Whether you're in a firm and you're
trying to go alongside the C-suite

and make sure you're telling the story
right, of what's happening financially.

But, also, if you're trying to build
your own business, you got to be that.

And there's that word that
comes up, thought leader,

and I think that word is thrown
around a little too much.

But, maybe, you can explain what
does it mean to be a thought leader

and how does that boost your brand,

as you're building up this
idea of writing a book?

– Yes, I like that question.

So before I get into thought leader, I want
to talk about one of the opposites, almost.

And it's an idea that you, probably, heard
of and is known as Impostor Syndrome.

And there are so many people that I talk
to, come to me in one of two ways

when we start talking about writing a book.

On the one side, it's either
"I have so much knowledge

that I want to share with the world."

And then, of course, they run into
the challenge of "Where do I start?"

On the other side, it's, "Who am I
to talk about these ideas?

What I do is very average and ordinary.

Would people be interested in what I know?"

And that's a form of Impostor Syndrome.

And, so, as a starting point, in either case,
what I love to be able to help people do.

On the one side, if they have a lot of knowledge

and ideas that they want to share,

is how do you simplify and
focus that to a core message.

That you have a core audience for
and it resonates with them,

and they're motivated to learn
more about, ultimately,

how you can help solve
a problem, in most cases.

Help them create that transformation from
where they are to where they want to be,

and do so in a compelling way that
engages them and interests them.

Then on the other side, if
someone is stuck and thinking,

"What do I have to share?"

What I love doing with them,
is really showing them

it's like almost falling in love again,

with all the amazing knowledge
that you've learned.

I mean, all of us, we've put years
into our craft, into our profession.

We've learned really cool things and,
over time, because it becomes so routine

and we don't actively think about it,
let's say we get bored of it.

Or it's just so routine that we
forget how amazing it was,

the first time that we, actually,
learned how to do something.

The first time I learned how to do something,

I'm like, "This is the best thing ever."

And, then, a week later, or a month
later, it's like "I do that all the time."

So I wanted to establish that first.

Because, now, when you think about a
thought leader—what is a thought leader?

And there's a progression of what's
considered a thought leader.

But, I think, first and foremost,
it's someone who's perceived

to be an expert on a subject.

I think a lot of people go
to university, get degrees,

have some initials after their name,

but I don't think they're
perceived as thought leaders.

I think that's considered
pretty standard, pretty average.

But someone that's willing to go
publicly and put their ideas out in public

in the form of a book, or speaking
and talking about a book.

And when people listen to them
or read their work, they see that

they have a point of view, a cohesive
set of ideas, and they can explain that

in such a way that's informative or persuasive.

That becomes the basis, in my mind,
at least, of becoming a thought leader.

Now, the more exposure you get, the
more media you do, the more you write,

the more people are aware of you.

I think that, then, grows your influence
and, by definition, your thought leadership,

and that's just really a factor of
awareness of what you do.

And, so, the more people you talk to,
the more people know your work,

the bigger your, quote-unquote,
"Thought leadership" becomes.

I think at the end of the day,
though, and what I do,

I attract a lot of my clients through
LinkedIn, and these are people

that I don't know who they are.

I've reached out to them in some form,
or I've created awareness in some form

because I work with financial professionals.

And, so, they are attracted by
marketing in one way or the other.

They read my book, they listen to a podcast,

and then, at some point,
they show up on my calendar.

And it's that awareness through
ideas, thought leadership,

it could be described as, that can take
someone who's a complete stranger,

but attract them to you in a
way that you want them to.

And there's a lot of different
applications there to do that.

I don't want to overemphasize
what thought leadership is

and make it this grandiose thing, that
only a certain few select people do.

I think any of us can be a thought leader,

and it just takes the willingness and
desire to package some of our knowledge,

and be willing to put it out
there in the public sphere.

– Yes, I mean, the way you explained
it, really makes a lot of sense

because, I think, it's been a term that's
been thrown around a little too much.

But it's helpful to make it more applicable,

saying, "Hey, anybody can be a thought leader

because you have knowledge,
you have experience,

and it's just about sharing that knowledge."

So how does one get over that Imposter
Syndrome that you talked about?

Because I feel like the first step

would be to, "Hey, how do I
overcome my Impostor Syndrome?"

Because you may realize, listening to this
podcast, "Hey, I do have a lot of things

I can share, but I don't know if I'm able, I
don't know if people want to listen to me."

Right there, the definition of
that Imposter Syndrome.

So how does one start overcoming
that to move to the next step?

– Yes, there's a quote that I learned
from one of my mentors,

maybe, 10 years or so, ago,
his name is Michael Port,

and he talked about learning in action.

And what that means, to me,
because I've really built up

my current business from the
ground up, over the past nine years.

And when I started I didn't know a lot,

and it was just I have to go out
there and put up my shingle.

And, then, as an entrepreneur,
you have to figure stuff out.

And it's just willing to take action,
being willing to be uncomfortable.

I think the two components
that are important there

is that, one, you have a desire.

You have an end result
that you want to achieve.

I mean, if you don't have motivation,

then, chances are you're not
going to follow through on it.

So you want to have that
why clearly established.

Why is this important to you?

Why are you doing this?

And once you're clear on that why,
then, you have, ultimately, the fuel

that's going to propel you forward.

I think the second part of
that is to not go it alone.

I think in any endeavor, in life,
having a coach, in some capacity.

Someone that you have as a sounding
board, someone you can bounce ideas off.

Someone who's gone before you and can
make the path that much easier to trot.

I think those things
are all extremely helpful

in overcoming the Impostor Syndrome.

So much of the time, it's just
this small voice in our head

that says, "You can't do this."

Or "What are you doing?"

And what you need, what's beneficial is
to have someone supportive around you.

Whether it's a coach or a group
that can challenge you and say,

"No, you absolutely have
every right to do this."

I want to share a story of
one of my earlier clients.

She's not an accountant
or a finance professional,

but she was a world-class expert
in helping to rescue penguins.

And her name, I believe it was,
Diane, Dylan or Diane, I think,

it's been a few years.

But I was interviewing her on a podcast
because I knew about her reputation,

and she's written books,

and she's one of like five people in
the world, that can rescue penguins.

When there's some global tragedy,
the UN or whomever agency calls her.

So that, I think, by definition,
would be an expert.

That would be a thought leader in the space.

But when I interviewed her, on
the podcast, it was just amazing,

she was like, "Ah, who am I to do this?"

I mean, it was just remarkable, considering
that she's like one of five people.

She's written books,
she does this for a living.

But it just goes to show you
that this is very common.

And, so, I think, another aspect of that
is just being aware that it's okay.

If you're having small thoughts,
that's okay, we all go through it.

And it's, ultimately, having that vision,
that goal, that why that can help you say,

"Okay, I'm willing to grow, I'm
willing to stretch my comfort zone

because there's a reason
for me to do this."

And, so, when you have those things in place,

you can overcome the Imposter Syndrome.

– Definitely, well, I like the
idea of getting a mentor,

getting somebody that has
walked the road before you.

And I want to preface this, too,

is you're not going to get
everything right the first time.

You're going to fail, and you
can't be afraid to fail, right?

– 100%, myself, as an entrepreneur,

one of the chief lessons I've
learned is fail fast, fail forward,

and we're going to get most things wrong.

And the more you're comfortable failing,
the faster you can become successful.

It's not to say that you want
to provide quality work

and you want to do all these different things,

but just being willing to fail
is the fastest way to succeed.

As an aside, I've taken Improv classes, and
one of the key lessons that I learned there,

and it's really a mindset,
is that fail and fail big,

don't get scared by it but embrace it.

And, of course, in the
Improv setting it's funny,

the more you fail, the funnier it can be.

But it really just becomes a mindset.

And, so, just in your day to day,

there are so many things that we
act small on and we're afraid to do.

But if you just have this mindset,
"Hey, I'm just going to try it.

What's the worst that can happen?"

And you just say, "It doesn't really matter."

Then that is the fastest way forward.

– And it's interesting, when you were
saying that, it made me think of a term

that I've used a lot in my
professional career, sometimes,

like, "I'm just faking it till I make it."

But, sometimes, I wonder
if faking it till you make it

is part of that Impostor Syndrome.

Where "I'm just faking it till I make it."

But you, actually, are doing
a really good job

and you're not faking it because
you do know what you're doing.

So I wonder if trying to getting over that
mindset of "Faking it till you make it"

and saying, "No, I'm just going to fail, fail
hard, and keep going forward instead."

–Yes, I hear you because,
I think, "Fake it till you make it"

almost has like a negative connotation,

that you're not really qualified to do something.

But, yes, it's how you frame it in your
mind, and, I think, it could be similar.

But it's, definitely, the way that
I mean it's in a positive way,

it's that that's the way to success.

But, again, that's where you can
fake it till you make it on your own.

And, maybe, that's where you don't tell
anyone that you're uncomfortable,

or you don't quite know what you're doing,

or this or that and, maybe, there are
some negative connotations there.

But that's where when you just understand
that being uncomfortable is part of it,

and you can surround yourself
by like-minded people, or a mentor,

or a coach, and they can help guide you,
and set those boundaries, so to speak.

Where it's okay to not get it perfect.

It's okay to, fail, is a strong
word, but imperfection is okay.

I think another analogy might be perfectionism.

It's like, "Well, if I can't write a masterpiece,

if it's not going on the New York Times
bestselling list, then, why even bother?

And another analogy or another metaphor
is being willing to write something

or step out and not be perfect.

Because the act of doing something

is inherently more valuable than staying small.

– Yes, I like that, I like that it's
a kind of reframing that mindset

of, "I'm not really faking it, but I'm learning
as I grow, and things may not be perfect.

But I'm putting myself out there and
that helps me grow, as a professional."

– It is, and I think it's authenticity.

Again, that's where you just reframe
it from the "Fake it till you make it"

which can be a little bit of a negative
connotation, it's just being authentic.

It's like, "Hey, I'm learning something
new, I'm trying something new.

It's not going to be perfect, bear
with me, but this is my goal."

And if you tell people that they'll
appreciate your authenticity,

when it comes to it.

At the end of the day, part of Imposter
Syndrome is the fear of being judged.

So it's like, "I'm really good
at staying in this lane.

I'm really good at it,
and people respect me,

and I get praise, and I get rewarded.

And if I come into this other lane
that I'm not comfortable with,

then, I haven't developed
my competency, yet.

And, so, suddenly people
see that I'm not perfect."

And, so, again, it's all this mindset
stuff that you need to grapple with.

And, again, should you put
yourself through the process

and it goes back to your why.

And we'll talk about personal
branding or writing a book;

what could it do for your career?

What could it do for your personal brand?

What could it do for your thought leadership?

What could it do for your ability to communicate?

What could it do for your confidence?

I mean, I find that before I do anything
now I want to start by writing a book.

Because if I launch a service,
or a company, or anything,

I want to start by writing a book
because I know that in doing so,

I'm going to get my own
thinking very clear.

I'm going to be able to communicate
my message that much better

and, then, my path to success
is that much shorter.

– Mh-hmm, I'm sure somebody's
been listening to us

chat about writing a book,
and personal branding,

and I'm sure somebody has
thought of the term white paper.

And when you think of professional
writing, people think of white papers.

Maybe we can help distinguish

the difference between this book
that we're talking about writing,

and a white paper.

Let's help differentiate that in people's
minds, as we're talking through this.

– Yes, in my mind, from
a strictly writing standpoint,

they could have some similarities.

I think from a status and impact level,
though, there's a huge difference.

One's author, what I love about the word,
is that it's part of the word authority.

And, so, people see someone

who's an author and they have a
completely different view of them,

immediately, in terms of their competency,
their expertise, all these different things.

Rightly or wrongly, that's the immediate
perception that people have.

I think with a white paper you might have
the same level of knowledge or skill set,

but there isn't any status or additional
credibility that is associated with it.

There's no personal branding.

Largely speaking, you don't go and tell
people, "Hey, I wrote a white paper, no."

And it's like, "What?"

Whereas when you say you're an
author everyone, suddenly, steps back

and says, "Wow, that's really cool."

So my recent book, it's called
The Short Book Formula.

And I think that one of the reasons
everyone is afraid to write a book

is that if you think about
a 40,000-page business book,

that could be a daunting task.

And, then, conversely, if you actually
want people to read your book,

people have limited attention spans.

And, so, the idea of reading six, 10, 12,15
hour book is a bigger task for the reader.

And, so, what I've devised is
what I call the Short Book Formula,

which is based on writing
a roughly 12,000-word book.

Now, why is that important?

12,000 words and the way we format it,
is roughly 100 pages, and 12,000 words

can be read or, in audio form,
listened to in about 60 to 90 minutes.

With 12,000 words you have
the ability to, in our case,

we help people write and publish
a book within six to 12 weeks.

And, so, it's not this year-long
thing that they have to do,

it's a lot more manageable.

And, on the flip side, when you give your
book or when people read your book,

they're that much more likely to, actually,

not just get the book
and put on their bookshelf.

They're that much more likely
to actually read, listen to,

and consume the message.

Which, especially, if you're in the role
of selling, is extremely important.

Short books have a strong pedigree.

I have a list right here that I talk about, so
I'm going to name out a couple of titles

that you may have heard of before.

The Art of War by Sun Tzu, 96 pages.

The Prince by Niccolo Machiavelli, 94 pages.

This next one, have you heard
of The Communist Manifesto?

For better or worse?

– I have, yes.
– 40 pages.

And, so, I share those examples
because you can see the impact

that short books have
had throughout history.

What I really love about short
books is when someone reads it,

if the message resonates,
not only do they get through it

and actually read the whole message,
they're more likely to read it again.

I mean, there are books that I've read
multiple times because I really enjoyed it

and I can get through it, relatively, quick.

And, this also helps to answer
the question of the person

who has too many ideas, so
to speak, knows a lot of things

and is trying to focus in on
what should my book be about?

My answer would be, well,
let's start with one book

and get it really focused,
in terms of your audience,

what the message is,
why they should read it,

and write a book around that topic.

But, then, from that point, you could
start another book, 12,000 words.

Maybe it's a new audience
or it's a different topic.

And, so, you have the ability to
create, over time, a series of books.

I mean, I've found that I've gone
from publishing a book once a year.

To, now, where I'm starting
to hit two books a year

just because I see the value of it
and just the process of doing it,

is that much more quick and effective.

– Mh-hmm, wow, and from somebody
who's read your Short Formula Book.

It, probably, took me about two hours,

just because I'm a slower reader,
and I was thinking more about it.

But it is a very quick read
and it's an easy read.

And it's not like you have
to write at a collegiate level,

but you want to write at a level
that people can understand,

and get through it quickly, and
understand what you're talking about.

And, so, I think that's
a huge difference, too,

is that don't think that you have
to write in this crazy way.

Obviously, I mean, something like
The Art of War, may not be easy

for everybody to understand
because of the way he wrote it.

But other ones that went far like
the communist one you mentioned,

that one went far and wide
to many different people

because of the plain language,
as an example of plain language,

and how well that can affect people.

– Yes, I mean, that's one of the
things that a book well-written

or well-read is, probably, the better way
to say that, uses accessible language.

It uses language that an average person,

a non-specialist, can read,
absorb, and learn from.

And that might be another difference
between a white paper and a book.

I think, a white paper is more technical,

in nature and it's geared
more towards a technician.

Whereas a book, fundamentally, you
have a specific audience in mind.

But you want to expand
who that audience is

and, actually, get them to read it
because it's interesting and engaging,

uses stories to make points, but
the language should be accessible.

I mean, when you're trying to impress
people through fancy language,

oftentimes, it's actually the opposite.

You want to make them
understand it better.

– Yes, you want to make
them understand it better.

I've always heard that "If you could
explain what you do to an eight-year-old,

you can explain it to anybody."

And I think it's having that
mindset when you're writing.

– Well, and, then, from there it goes back

to the benefits of writing a book is that
it helps you to clarify your thoughts,

it helps you to communicate
your ideas better.

And, then, aside from the actual book,

it translates into your ability
to communicate with people.

Whether it's internal, in the
company, whether it's external,

you're able to express your
ideas that much more clearly

to a wider audience and be understood.

So for someone who is looking for,
say, more speaking opportunities.

I mean, at a corporation or a company,

oftentimes, the higher
you go up the ladder,

the more it requires your leadership
and your communication abilities.

And, so, it's just a great way to hone
in on those skills, develop those skills,

and then be recognized for it.

Someone who has a book
is much more easily

given an opportunity to speak,
whether it's at a conference,

whether it's at a podcast, for example,
whatever it is because it's trust in advance.

People trust that you have a message
that can help inform and teach people.

– Yes, and it allows you, and it grows
your name, as you get out there

and get those opportunities.

– It does.
– Yes.

So as we wrap up the conversation, this
has been a really great conversation.

Thinking about the accounting
and finance professional,

and the people that you've worked with.

Are there any examples you can
give or any stories you can tell?

That are success stories,
that our audience can hear

as they imagine how
they could take this route?

–Yes, definitely, one person
that comes to mind,

his name is Michael Poisson, and I met
him, I want to say, a year or two ago.

And Michael is, I think, he's really
the epitome of everything

that we've been talking about.

He's a ESG data specialist and
he works for a smaller company

who, essentially, sells ESG data to,
primarily, service-based companies,

as well as to asset managers.

And in his journey of it,
part of what he was doing

from a marketing and sales perspective,

was that he was going to conferences,

really as an attendee, and listening in,
networking, doing all those things.

And part of the value that he saw
of writing and publishing the book,

even though he was an
employee for a company,

not a business owner or an entrepreneur,

was that it would elevate his personal brand.

And it would give him more status to
generate more speaking opportunities,

to create more visibility, and
credibility for what he does.

So he published his book, I want
to say, six months to a year ago.

And I've spoken to him since then,
and since then he's reported that,

at these conferences, he's invited
much more often to, actually,

be a panelist or a speaker,
which massively increases

his awareness inside of his community.

He's also gone on a number
of podcasts, both as a guest.

He hosts, now, his own podcast,
and he invites thought leaders on.

But, essentially, having the book has
allowed him to elevate his game,

meaning that he can create
a lot more visibility for himself.

He can much more effectively network
with more influential people in the process.

And it allows him to go from
this person at a small company,

and because of that elevated
personal branded awareness,

he can more effectively compete

with the larger companies out
there in the marketplace.

What's interesting about his story, and it
ties back to what we've been talking about,

is that he's a really smart guy.

And I knew this from day one,

working with him, ton of
knowledge, all these things.

But to go back to Impostor Syndrome,
throughout our work together,

continuously, he would not
refer to himself as the expert.

He would refer to, "Oh, these
people they're the experts,

I'm just gathering data, I'm
just presenting the information."

And I had to tell him over and over
again, "You are the expert.

In doing this process and demonstrating

what you know and all these
things, you are an expert."

So it just goes back to that
whole personal journey.

I think it was also rewarding because,
again, we've been talking about,

and I could see this during the time that
we worked together and afterwards.

But it really helped him deep dive
in terms of ESG, and its value,

and the stories, and why it's important, and
he, obviously, knew this stuff beforehand.

But just in going through the process,
it really deepened his knowledge

and his ability to communicate with others.

He even had a college professor,
who is pretty prominent in his field,

come to him and say, "Hey, I want
to use your book as part of my course."

Which was pretty cool.

– Yes, that's pretty awesome.

And I like that you told the story
about how even during the process,

as he was going through it and learning
more, he was still struggling with that

Imposter Syndrome, and that's a
big thing for a lot of us to overcome.

Because you don't realize, "I am an expert."

– Yes, a 100%, and that goes back to
why you don't want to go it alone,

you want a sounding board.

But you also want someone who
can give you positive encouragement

and challenge some of,
perhaps, the limiting thoughts

that you might have on your own.

– Definitely, well, Paul, we could probably
talk about this for another half hour.

But I really appreciate the insight
you've given us, you've given our audience,

and I really think that they're going
to really benefit from this.

I encourage everybody
to look at the show notes.

You'll see links to Paul's website,
if you want to check out his books

and the stuff he's written, and if
you want to get in touch with him,

there'll be ways to get in
touch with him, as well.

And just thank you, again, for coming on.

– All right, thank you, I appreciate it,
I enjoyed the conversation.

< Outro >

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