< Intro >

– Welcome back to another
episode of Count Me In.

I'm your host, Adam Larson.

And in today's episode, we
have special guest, Ben Wolf.

Joining us to discuss the fascinating
concept of fractional leadership.

Ben is the founder and CEO
of Wolf's Edge Integrators.

A premier fractional COO organization.

Today we'll explore the key factors to
consider when hiring fractional executives.

The benefits they bring to businesses, and
even dive into some real-life examples.

So get ready to uncover the
power of fractional leadership,

and how it can revolutionize your organization.

< Music >

Ben, thank you so much for
coming in on the podcast.

We're really excited to talk about
fractional executive leadership, today.

And I thought maybe we could start off by
maybe you can share some experience,

some of your own experiences.

That led you to discover this concept
of fractional executive leadership,

and how it changed your approach
to leadership in an organization.

– Sure, absolutely, well, Adam,
first of all, thank you

for the opportunity to share about this topic.

Obviously something I'm very passionate about.

And I first came across it
when I was in this business

that I first grew up in, entrepreneurially.

I used to be a corporate bankruptcy attorney.

And after I left that, I helped build this
entrepreneurial business from startup.

Built most of its operations,
it was a healthcare startup,

until we had over 130 people,
and we were the largest

healthcare agency of our category,
in the entire state of New York,

so really quite a journey.

And ways into that, what we
and the other members

of the leadership team realized

is that all of us were figuring out
this business for the first time.

It was the first time any of us had been
running a business of our size before.

I mean, we'd been employees
in larger corporate businesses

or cogs in the machine, at various places.

But the first time, actually, running
a business of our size before.

I mean, let's say when we're 50, 75, 100
people, we had never done this before.

And, so, everything that we're doing, we're
reinventing the wheel, at a certain point.

We hired an EOS implementer,

to help us use this management system
called Entrepreneurial Operating System.

And, so, we tried to get help and
consultants, usually, just felt like

they just put together some big report and
spent dozens and dozens of hours with us,

and members of our team, and just would
deliver this report and say, "Good luck."

Now, I just call that drive-by consulting.

What I just realized is, you know what,
sometimes that's what you need.

But, sometimes, you need somebody
that's, actually, on your team

that's, actually, part of the business
and that's done it before.

That's not just figuring it out
for the first time like we were.

And, so, we started looking
at hiring for full-time roles

and, sometimes, either we were just priced
out, these people are like 300 thousand,

it didn't necessarily make sense for this role.

Or we realized we need people who've
done this before, and we didn't have it.

And, so, it wasn't really till after
I had left there, and I was a COO

at a smaller business after that.

And, then, I really discovered this
concept of a fractional executive.

Where you can actually get
an executive on your team.

That's not the trauma if it doesn't work out,
or the cost of 300 thousand plus bonus,

plus benefits, and everything else, of a
full-time executive, who's done this before.

And, also, maybe, somebody that you
might be worried might be too corporate

for your environment, and you could
actually do that with a fractional executive.

You can get someone that's done it before.

Whether it's a CFO, or a COO, or CMO,

CTO, CIO, CHRO, whatever,
something else, and get them on.

They're part of your leadership team,

they're part of your management team meetings.

They have direct reports within the business.

And, so, it's like the best of both worlds.

You have a high-level person that's
done it before, they're on your team.

They get to know your business better

because they're actually part of
your team on an ongoing basis.

Not just consulting, "Hey, good luck."

But actually managing the people
and managing that department,

but just doing so on a part time basis.

So I just became aware of that and,
then, ultimately, started to do it myself

first as a solo practitioner, as a chief
operating officer, fractional COO.

And, then, ultimately, started
building a team, which I have now.

But that's sort of the experience I went through.

It was what I learned
in that business growing up,

and not having someone
like that, who'd done it before.

That made me aware of this solution,
as I learned more over time.

– Yes, that's so interesting.

Because if you're reading any business
application, if you're reading any articles,

if you're reading anything in
any industry, around business,

you hear this term fractional leadership.

And, I think, we may have jumped the gun.

So maybe we can start by defining
what is fractional leadership

and how does it differentiate?

Because if you're listening to this

and you've, maybe, heard
this term thrown around.

And people, probably, assume,
like you were saying, maybe,

it's like a consultant kind of thing,
but it seems like it's more than that.

– Yes, that's a great question.

I basically define a fractional
executive or a fractional leader,

as the same as a regular executive.

Because the regular executive,
if you have your CMO, or your CRO,

or your COO, CFO, CTO, CHRO, whatever,

they're responsible for a
function of the business.

The CMO was responsible for the
marketing function of this business.

Not one project, but the
marketing of the business.

The outcomes, the people, everything, just
the marketing function of the business.

CFO, and a lot of people listening
to this, the audience, maybe CFOs

or other roles in the finance,
or accounting departments.

And CFO is your CFO, they're responsible
for your P&L, and finding savings,

and forecasting, and strategy,
just like a full-time CFO.

The only difference between a
full-time and a fractional CFO is that

they're there fractionally,
and they're part time.

So it enables you to afford someone in
that role, that is maybe more experienced

than you could afford on a full time basis.

So if you don't need someone with
a tremendous amount of experience

that's been CFO for decades,
at multiple businesses,

or a CMO at various businesses.

If you don't need that, then, fine, you can
hire a CMO and let them grow into the role,

over time, or whatever, that could work.

But if you do need someone
that's done this before.

You may not be able to afford
or might not be able to find

just because there's a shortage
of those kind of people.

By bringing someone fractionally,
you can find someone like that.

Someone that have that higher caliber.

But the way they provide that service is
a little different than someone in full-time.

They're not going to be doing all
the all-hands-on-deck admin stuff,

working 60 hours a week in your company.

And even though they're a CFO or the COO,
they end up doing tons of admin stuff, too.

Just because they're there full-time and
they're fully invested in the business.

Eating, breathing, sleeping,
drinking the business.

So they end up doing all this
stuff that's not really CFO stuff.

They're doing a lot of stuff
that's really not CMO stuff.

They're doing copywriting,
they're doing graphic design,

and web work, and all these things.

So where your CFO is getting a little
bit more involved than they should

in the bookkeeping, or the controlling,
and not really being that strategic CFO.

But fractional just forces you to say,
"Okay, I want to only utilize that person

at their highest and best use,

at the biggest ROI that I'm
going to get from them.

Because that's all I'm really paying for."

And they will set up a cadence with the
finance team, or the marketing team,

or the operations team, or
whatever, or the technology team,

and they'll set up a cadence with them.

They'll set up measurables and processes

with the team, that reports to them.

They'll create accountability

and a cadence for those
meetings, and that work.

And they'll work with the
rest of the leadership team.

And, so, they're able to fulfill that role
because of that cadence, processes,

and the metrics on a more condensed basis.

So they might be with you
for six months, nine months,

12 months, 18 months, 24 months,
and then hand off to a full-time person.

Or you may realize that a fractional
can work in the long term,

and there's, definitely, a lot of people

who will end up doing that,
especially, in the CFO roles.

A lot of businesses you'll find,
and we've seen a lot of CFOs.

You talk to FocusCFO, which is a fractional
CFO franchise, 70, 80 team members.

They'll be years and years, on end, just
doing that CFO role, on a fractional basis.

It really depends on your own unique business.

– Yes, that's interesting.

So it's an interesting model

because when you're somebody's,
especially, such a high executive,

you expect them to be there.

Be into the weeds of leading
the team, and part of the strategy.

How does that work in practice?

Because are these fractional executives,

are they working with three or four
different organizations, at the same time.

How does that work?

– It's a good question.

I would just get to give my firm as
an example, Wolf's Edge Integrators.

We have a team of experienced COOs,
who have run their own businesses.

On average, we're working with about
three clients, at a time, on average.

Some CFOs I know, maybe work
with their client four hours a month

or something like that, or eight hours a month.

And, so, they're going to just be less involved,

and they're going to have
a controller and bookkeepers.

Whether outsourced or in house,
that they're overseeing.

And, so, what it means, to be able
to get someone of that caliber

helping you in the CFO, CMO, COO,
et cetera, role, is it forces you

to just be more strategic about
how are we using that person's time.

Because so often when you
have executives in a business,

they end up spending 50, 60, 70%
of their time on non-CFO activities

or non-CMO activities.

So, really, they're doing a lot of
admin, they're doing a lot of things.

Where you're paying them a big
executive salary, but you're not getting

90, 100% of their time spent on activities

that are a good ROI on
what you're paying for them.

– Got you.
– So when you're fractional

it forces you to do, if you're using
that model, is to ensure that

we are outsourcing or hiring
for the lower level activities.

So that we can ensure that
we get a good ROI on our money.

If we're like spending money
on controlling and bookkeeping,

we get a good ROI on that money.

And for whatever we're spending

on our CFO, we're getting
a good ROI on that money.

If it truly is a full-time role
in the business, then great.

Then just try to make sure that they
are delegating what they should be.

That they are not masking the
inefficiencies of the people under them

or the processes under them,
by babysitting them.

And just doing a lot of activity
that's not really appropriate

for someone of their caliber and capabilities.

It just forces you to do that
because if you're fractional,

you can't mask those underperforming
employees with babysitting.

You can't mask those inefficient
processes and things

that have to be reviewed
50 times, by babysitting

because they're not there all the time.

That pushes those issues to the forefront,

and it forces you to address them
to get the right people on the team.

To get the wrong people off the
team, to hire the right roles,

outsource the right roles.

Set up metrics, accountabilities,
processes, and systems

that will enable your team to be
effective without being babysat.

Because babysitting is not an
option when you're fractional,

but when you're full time it is an option.

And, so, people end up spending a lot of
their time on things that they shouldn't

and, also, doing what I call
helicopter management.

Babysitting, kind of masking
process and people issues,

that are not being addressed
just because they're always there.

– Mm, well, we could definitely
unpack what you just said

in a lot of different ways.
– Yes, that's a big one.

– There are a lot of things, but we'll stay
focused here on fractional leadership.

But the stuff you said, I think, there's a
lot of things that could be addressed

in organizations, what they should look for.

If those things are happening in the organization,

or how to identify those things.

But, maybe, we can start with,
let's say I'm a business owner

listening to this podcast and you're like,
"This fractional thing sounds interesting.

I wonder if my people are babysitting.

I wonder if they're doing those things."

How can you determine whether
it's a right fit for your organization?

How can you make that decision?

How can you see that?

– Well, that's really two
very different questions.

If you want to know if your CFO,
or your controller, or whoever

is babysitting, rather than being
an effective manager and leader-

– That's a whole another podcast.
– ...one thing you could,

well, I'll just tell you here's a shortcut.

Tell them to go on vacation for two weeks
and delete their email off their phone.

And as they prepare for those two weeks
or as they go through the two weeks,

and you see the carnage
that is left over, afterwards.

Where all the catch up work
and everything that didn't get done

or didn't happen, or happened badly,
that will bring that issue to the forefront.

And, then, you'll identify all the
things that you need to correct.

So, then, maybe, six months, now,
schedule another two-week vacation

and, then, maybe, you could
be much more prepared

and fix a lot of those issues before that.

Anyway, you just asked that
question about how you identify it.

And what was the other question you asked?

– Well, how can you determine whether
this is a right fit for your organization?

So, yes, I did ask the two questions.

And what I asked the first time could
probably be a whole 'nother podcast,

about identifying things in your leadership.

But maybe focusing more on the fractional.

How can you determine if this is
a good fit for your organization?

– I think one thing is that a lot of
fractional executives are coming in,

usually, where there's some sort of
change management needed.

And it's not like, "Oh, everything is hunky-dory.

We just need a manager,
just to manage the greatness

that we already have going on.

Usually, maybe, there's an acquisition
coming up or it's very dysfunctional,

and you just really need someone who
knows what a finance department is.

Let's talk about the CFO role for a second.

If they know what the CFO role, what the
finance department of an organization,

of your type, should look like.

Someone who's, again, done it before.

They're not figuring it out
for the first time.

So you want to shape up our finance
department to be a healthy department,

and have a strategic, not just a controller
that just manages the finance day-to-day.

But also is actually a strategic CFO and
provides strategic financial leadership.

And, so, the point is that, in any of those
examples, people are going through pain.

So one thing that, I guess, I would say if
you're ready is that; are you in enough pain

with whatever your situation is, or
whatever situation you're about to go into?

That you are in enough pain,
that you want change,

and you're open minded to learn a better way.

I think some of us, as business owners,

we're like, "Oh, I know everything
exactly that needs to be done,

I just need other people
to listen to what I say."

And they're not really open minded

to the idea that there are experts,
who have done this before.

That you could actually bring in to
fulfill the areas where you're lacking.

So that you can focus more
energy not on those things,

but on the things that you
have a superpower in.

And whether that's bringing in
finance, leadership, COO,

leading all the departments, or CMO, or
CRO, Chief Revenue Officer, or CTO, the HR,

and you're in pain in that area of the business.

You want to know something better.

You could say it means someone's coachable

or someone wants to know a better way.

So I would say that's one thing.

And, I guess, the second thing
I would mention is that,

well, you can afford someone of that
caliber, but on a fractional basis.

Obviously, maybe, it costs 250, 300
thousand to get someone of that caliber

full time, plus bonus, plus benefits.

But for fractional maybe it costs you
100 thousand, 150 thousand, a year.

But you're just giving somebody that
you couldn't afford, at the full-time level,

but you have to, at least, be able to afford
someone at that level, fractionally.

So, I guess, can you afford it?

Another element of whether that's
going to be a right fit for you is,

I guess, do you have the trust
of a potential outsider.

After they get to know you
and your business better,

to be able to back them up.

To not end-run around them.

To not undermine the things that
they're trying to help you build.

So that you want to have an independently
running and effective finance department.

But if you're going to always meddle in,
and undo, and change decisions,

and everything without discussing it in advance.

Then you're going to undermine
the work that you've asked them to do.

So do you have the ability to
back up and support the experts,

that you bring in onto your team.

Rather than just never let go and not be able

to let go of the vine, as some people say.

But just not be able to empower the people

that you bring in to do what
you've asked them to do.

Because they're not going to be effective
at that if you're not able to let go.

– So one thing I was reading about that,

sometimes, that people are
concerned about bringing in

a fractional leadership is, "Hey, this
is not a full-time commitment.

How can I trust them in that moment?"

And what are some things
that they can think through?

You kind of mentioned a little bit that
they're going to have to trust them.

But how can you help with those concerns?

– I think that, especially, if you're
talking to a solo practitioner.

You could ask for references
to talk to current or past clients,

or employers, that that person has,
just like with any other employee.

Even a fractional CFO,
or a fractional CMO, or COO,

it's a critical hire or a critical
retention, maybe not hire.

And, so, that's one thing you could
do, obviously, is ask for references.

My own people working with
our firm, Wolf's Edge Integrators,

usually, our reputation precedes itself.

So people have worked with us before.

They talk to other people
who've worked with us before.

They know it's a reputable organization.

So you can rely on a reputation of an
organization, which can go a little further

than the reputation of an individual.

More people can have heard
of it or might have used them.

So that's another thing that you can go to.

And I would say it's worthwhile to treat it
like you would any other smart hire.

A lot of people make a lot of bad hiring decisions.

And, so, I think, it's critical to be,
this goes to another thing that,

maybe, we were going to speak about.

Which is, "Okay, let's say I do want to
hire a fractional executive of some kind.

How do I make sure that I am
successful in the way that I do it,

and that it doesn't end up with a bad result?"

So I would say one of the most
critical things, when deciding

whether or not I could trust
somebody and letting go.

And, also, just in terms of making
the decision, whether I should retain

a fractional executive
or a fractional executive firm,

is to really give a lot of forethought

to what outcomes do you need from this retention?

What skills are important?
What outcomes are important?

What measurables are we going to
be looking at, in this engagement?

What outcomes or goals, six, nine,

12 months, down the road, do we want to see?

And just be very explicit about that.

Write it down for yourself,
communicate it openly,

and then make sure that's in writing
somewhere in the engagement.

Hopefully, if they're writing you a proposal
or a contract, make sure that's in there.

So that there's no misunderstanding

or assumptions about what "I'm
actually going to be doing in this role."

That it's just in writing,
it's clear, it's black and white.

You're able to be very much on the
same page about what's expected.

And I would say listen to your gut.

If you're having a couple of calls with somebody,

or you have another member
of your team, or your partner.

Or another member of your leadership
team, that talks to the proposed person,

that you might be working with,
just listen to your guts.

And if you feel like they just
have this preformed narrative,

let's say, about what they do
with all their clients.

But it's not the same as what I want
to get out of this engagement.

That's why it's important
to write it down, in advance,

before you even speak with somebody.

What outcomes do I want?
What am I looking for?

What skills do I need?

And, then, just make sure
are they aligned with that?

Do they seem to get it?

That's something I would say.

So references, reputation, being
very clear about what you want,

and getting the agreements in writing.

So that there's no misunderstanding
about what outcomes or accountabilities

are going to be in place.

– Are there certain industries
or sizes of business,

where a fractional leader makes more sense?

– I think it depends on which
fractional role you're talking about.

– Okay.
– For instance,

a company is going to need
a full-time CFO, sometimes,

before they need a full-time CMO, let's say.

Or they're going to need a full-time Chief
Sales Officer or a Chief Revenue Officer,

before they need a full-time CMO.

I'm just saying you could
have a 25, 30-person business

that maybe needs a fractional CMO.

But maybe they need a full-time
CFO or a full-time head of sales.

Because that's the driver of the whole
revenue of the business is sales.

So maybe they need a full-time
person in the sales role.

Although, there are fractional
sales leaders as well.

But, maybe, that sales role
needs to be full time

before the marketing role
needs to be full time.

And you could have a fractional
Chief Marketing Officer.

You could get someone with a
much more extensive experience

than you could get if you tried
to hire somebody full time.

You just end up with somebody
that knows copywriting really well,

or knows graphic design,
or knows social posting really well,

or maybe they know PPC, pay-per-click,
maybe, they know it really well.

But they're not going to be a real strategic
CMO to create your entire strategy,

and drive execution,
and all the resources of that.

It just may not make sense to hire that
kind of CMO, when you're only 30 people.

This may not make sense.

– Yes.
– I mean, a CHRO,

for example, sometimes, you
might bring in an HR generalist,

not really a chief people
officer, but an HR generalist,

you could have that full time,
when you're 50 people.

But, maybe, it's not till you're
150 people or 200 people,

that you need a full-time HR person.

But you can get somebody, maybe,
when you're only 75 people a fractional.

So, depending on the role, I would think

it depends when you need
certain roles as full time,

versus when you need them as fractional.

– Yes, and when you're thinking
about this fractional role.

I'd imagine in today's work environment,

with remote working, hybrid, all
those things that are prevalent.

A fractional executive doesn't necessarily

need to be able to come
to the office, all the time,

and, especially, if they're meeting
or if they live in a different location.

How does the fractional leader
adapt to those types of situations?

Let's say a company is completely remote

and you'll never actually
going to see anybody in person.

Are there certain tools that they
can use to maintain, and help

the leaders maintain that
connection and productivity,

as they're coming into certain organizations?

– Yes, well, certainly, if it's a mostly
remote business, to begin with,

or largely remote, or even partially remote.

Obviously, that makes it a lot easier,

and a lot less limited to any geography,
in terms of finding somebody.

With my firm, Wolf's Edge Integrators,
most of our fractional COOs

are not working in-person
on a week to week basis.

But for most of our clients, they do come
out, at the beginning of the engagement,

we'll start to build that rapport
with the leadership team in person.

And then they'll be there for quarterly
and annual planning sessions.

They'll get together in person for that, too,

I mean, for most of our engagements.

But on a week to week basis,
with the teams, it's remote.

And, so, the majority of the time

because, let's say just in the United States
alone, obviously, all over the world.

But even just in the United States
alone, you have the likelihood

of having a right-fit person, who
happens to live within 10, 20 miles

of your physical main
location is not that likely.

And, so, definitely, it helps
to be open minded to that.

In terms of tools, I think it's
important wherever possible

to have those in-person touch points
and to create that relationship

because they are a trusted
member of your teams.

I think it is helpful where
possible to have that.

Sometimes your businesses
are really all over the world,

and it's just never practical to
have everybody getting together.

At least even on the leadership team level,
everybody getting together in person.

So you just do those quarterly, annual
plannings and meetings, all on Zoom,

that's just how the entire thing is done.

There are definitely good tools,

and if you're setting up measurables and
processes, obviously, it's important,

and there's a lot of systems that work for this.

But it's important to have those systems

somewhere that everybody has accessible to.

So if you're using a CRM to manage
your sales, or operations, or processes.

Just make sure that the fractional
executive is in that system,

just like everybody else, and
everybody has transparency

to what everybody else is doing.

For managing meetings, and projects,

and accountabilities of managing the business,

I find that an online system like ninety.io,
n-i-n-e-t-y-.-i-o, is a good platform

for managing meetings, and
major projects, and major goals,

and managing the business,
and outlining the vision.

And the structure and the accountability
chart or the organizational chart,

and just managing all of that in a place.

Where everybody has access to it,
with full transparency,

I think a system like that is good.

There's another app that does that
called catapult.ai, is another good one.

There's an app called Bloom
Growth that does it.

I mean, I could keep going on
and on about this.

But there are a lot of good systems
that are good for managing companies,

and getting everybody on the same page.

That is, especially, relevant, even
if you're all in the same place,

but especially relevant if people
are not physically together.

– Mm, so we can't talk about a
fractional CFO without thinking about,

people could be listening to this saying,
"That's interesting, I think I could do that."

What are some considerations
somebody should think about or steps

they should take, when thinking
about going at this type of thing?

Whether through as a solo person
or joining an organization that does that,

kind of like Wolf's Edge Integrators.

– Sure, so what I would say, the first
thing people should be mindful of,

if they're thinking of going into this field,
which, obviously, I love it, it's a great field.

I think that the reasons why a lot of people
go into this are what I call the three mores.

Which is more fun, more
flexibility, and more money.

It's more fun in the sense that
because, as we spoke about earlier,

you're working on these higher order activities,

where you're making much greater impact.

A lot less of the admin or non-higher
impact activities, which is more fun

because you feel like you're
making a big difference.

You're spending more of your time
on more high impact activities.

So you get more satisfaction from it.

You get a satisfaction
from driving major change.

Not just managing something over
ten years, you're actually seeing

major impact on your efforts.

So that just makes it more
fun and more satisfying.

There's more flexibility because when I
mentioned, typically, people are working,

if let's say you're working about three
days a week, three clients at a time.

And that's about three days
a week of client time,

and then about two days a week of buffer time.

Working on your own solo practitioner
business, on business development,

on networking, and on driving
your kids to a sports conference,

and taking off a Friday, or taking off a Monday.

And just that extra flexibility
is a nice quality of life

for people that want to go into that.

And the other thing is more money, which
is that you can honestly make more

in about three days a week of client time.

Than you can in most full time,
even executive roles.

Because, again, it's scalable,
you only pay for what you're getting.

So by the hour, so to speak,
you're getting paid a lot more.

And, so, what the client gets out
of that, is they get the flexibility.

It's not a full-time hire, it's no big
overhead, it's less of a commitment.

They could end it after nine months, you
achieve what you need and then you end.

But it's not so nice to fire
your CFO after nine months.

But if it's fractional, that
was the plan to begin with.

So you just have that flexibility,
but you pay for that,

if you convert it to hourly, so to speak.

So you make more money
than you do with the full time,

at least, when you're fully
booked or close to it.

So that's what I would say.

But, then, how do you know if it's for you?

So one thing I would keep in mind is that,

understandably, you can't be effective
doing exactly the same things

that you did when you were full time.

– Yes.
– You just

have to recognize that it's different.

You can't be effective in driving change
and getting results, on a fractional basis,

with just a few hours a week,
or a few hours a month.

As you can when you're full-time,
when you're there all the time.

It's just very different.

You have to recognize that
it's not just more of the same.

It's going to be a brand new set of skills,

there are a lot of things you're
going to have to be very mindful of.

And the last, at least, high-level point
I would say is that it's important

to understand is that business
development/networking/building

a pipeline of potential clients,

especially, if you're a solo
practitioner, is part of your job.

If you don't view business
development as part of your job,

and it will always be part of your job.

Not just when you're first getting
started, but always be part of your job.

If you don't love that or at least
recognize and embrace it, as the reality,

then, you actually won't be
successful transitioning to fractional.

You may feel like, "Oh, I'll just do some
big effort when I first go independent."

And, then, maybe, that works, sometimes,
that will work, and then you'll stop.

You'll get, let's say, a full load
of clients for the first time,

and you'll stop doing business development.

But, ultimately, your network
and the network of your network,

eventually, peters out and you'll,
eventually, have no pipeline.

And your clients will end, vast majority
of them will end, at some point.

So whether it's six, nine, 12,
18 months down the road,

your clients will start to end.

You'll find yourself with no pipeline, no
clients, and getting back to panic mode,

and you'll just find yourself in
this feast or famine roller coaster.

That is just not giving you the three
mores, not going to give you the life

that you think you're going to have.

So the biggest thing I would say
is are you able to embrace

the idea of business development, as a
long-term part of your job description.

Just like client-service is a long term
part of your job description.

– So there is a lot more to think
about when you go at it as a solo,

as opposed to joining a
firm who's doing it, right?

– Yes, and there are all kinds of firms,

some firms you still have to do a lot of
business development, some you do less.

So there's a big mix of how that works.

Now, the other resources
I would point people towards,

if they want to learn about this
or exploring going into it,

is, first of all, I mean, read my book.

It's written for business owners but
I've had fractional leadership landing

executive talent you thought was out of reach.

I've had a ton of people who tell me that,

even though, again, it's written from the
perspective, or for the business owner,

is the audience, that as going into
it, it helped them tremendously.

It gave them terminology, gave them a
good understanding of what it takes,

so definitely read the book.

It's on Audible, paper,
hardcover, Kindle, whatever.

Another thing is there's a good community,
with a lot of education, called Voyageuru,

V-O-Y-A-G-E-U-R like voyagaeur
V-O-Y-A-G-E-U-R-U, like university .com,

and it's only 19 a month, I believe.

They've also got a boot camp,
they've got courses and materials.

I'm not affiliated with them in any way.

But just pointing that out as a
useful resource as voyageuru.com,

as someplace to go to learn more
about it, see if you're cut out for it.

You'd also connect to the community
there, with a lot of other people in the field.

So it's a good thing to
consider, to learn more.

– Yes, that's great, we'll try to put some
of these links into the show notes

for the audience, so they can check
out Ben's book and everything.

And, Ben, maybe, as a last question,
to wrap up the conversation.

This has been a great one.

How do you see fractional leadership
transforming the business landscape,

as we go into the future?

– I think the biggest thing I see about
it, first of all, it's been exploding

the last few years.

I mean, it's been around for decades, technically,

especially, the CFO field, that's really
the first field where it really exploded.

But over the last five years it's grown a lot.

I mean, post COVID, it's gotten even bigger

because of what you referenced earlier.

People are getting more open minded

to not being physically present with people.

And even though that's
not the same as fractional

because you could have
fractional that's also in person.

But it just opened people's
minds to finding talent

in ways that they were closed to earlier.

So I think that's part of why
it really expanded even more,

with the advent of COVID
and all the lockdowns.

But I would say that the biggest
impact it makes on businesses.

What it's really done is it has democratized

access to very high level,
very experienced talents

to an extent that didn't exist before.

Because if the only way you could
hire a CFO was full-time hiring a CFO,

and that was prohibitive,
for some reason for you,

then, you had no access to that talent.

– Yes.
– But what it's

done is, it's democratized and allowed
smaller and smaller businesses.

First, it wasn't just the big companies.

Now, then, it's the mid-sized businesses,

and then it's democratized
down even to small businesses

that can now access and
have people of that caliber.

Who've run those departments,
or run companies,

or owned companies before on their teams,

as a regular part of their leadership
team, just doing so fractionally.

So it's just democratized access
to much higher level talent,

to much smaller businesses than
who previously had access to it.

So I would say that's the biggest
thing that's transformative about it,

and makes it useful.

– Mh-hmm, well, Ben, I want to
thank you so much

for coming on the podcast.

I know I've learned a lot today and
I hope our audience has as well.

– I appreciate it, and I would just say, also,

even without getting the book people go to

wolfsedgeintegrators.com/resources.

There's actually a free chapter of
the book, chapter one of the book,

you can get access to it there,
and it doesn't cost anything.

I just want to put that out there as
well, if people want to learn more.

– Yes, and like I said, check the show
notes and we'll put a link to that,

in our show today.

– Awesome, thank you for
the opportunity, Adam.

I hope it was a value add for the audience.

– Thank you.

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