< Intro >

– Welcome to Count Me In.

Today, I'm thrilled to have Doug Parker,
Assistant Professor of Accounting

at Western Carolina University.

And Amanda Marcy, Assistant
Professor of Accounting

at the University of Scranton on today's show.

They are authors of the award-winning
article, The Value of Civility.

Which examines the important
relationships between ethics,

professional standards, and civil
behavior in the workplace.

Doug and Amanda will share insightful
perspectives from their research,

on how a culture of incivility can
negatively impact organizations.

What leaders can do to promote civility,

and advice for handling uncivil
bosses or co-workers.

Their expertise provides
a crucial framework

for maintaining ethical principles,

while nurturing a respectful
and productive work environment.

Doug and Amanda's thought-provoking
article underscores why self-awareness,

open communication, and thoughtful
leadership are vital for organizations

seeking to uphold integrity.

I'm excited to dive into these
critical issues with them.

Please join me in welcoming
Doug and Amanda to the show.

< Music >

– Well, Amanda and Doug, I'm really
excited to have you on the podcast today.

You, guys, are the authors of an
article called The Value of Civility,

which is the Curt Verschoor
Article of the Year.

And we're really excited to talk about that.

And, so, maybe we can start off by
explaining how civility in the workplace

is related to professional ethics, and
the ethical principles and standards.

And we're going to be talking a lot
about ethics and standards, today.

But maybe we can start a little bit
about maybe how civility works

and maybe what is civility.

Because it's not a word we hear
every day in every workplace.

– Well, it's definitely not
something you hear every day,

but it's something you witness every day.

Especially when you watch
media or any news outlets,

you'll see incivility at its best.

But the basic concept there is
it's, basically, an exchange

of seemingly inconsequential
or inconsiderate words,

that violate the conventional
norms of workplace conduct.

In other words, it's not,
necessarily, direct attacks.

It's more of texting on your cell phone
while someone's trying to convey a point

or real low intensity behavior
meant to harm others,

without maybe even recognizing
that you're doing it.

Sometimes it can be words that
we say that can harm others.

Derogatory comments, ignoring their
opinions, belittling their opinions,

I think, is a big part of incivility.

And we do witness it quite
a bit in everyday society.

Hopefully not in everyday workplace society,

but you see it a lot in terms of society.

Go to the counter and just
watch people do their orders.

Where something's done wrong
or not as quick as they think,

and you'll see those uncivil acts
begin to take place in there.

Any additional thoughts on that, Amanda?

– I would say one thing to remember
is that ethics contributes to how,

like Doug said, we treat each
other on a daily basis.

So civility, at its heart, focuses on honesty,
fairness, self control, and prudence.

Therefore, if we don't have civility,
then we can never truly act ethically.

– It definitely requires to be mindful
of a place, time, and how you speak.

I think we must concentrate on
what we say and how we say it.

So I found this neat, little, article by
Joan Dubinsky, from Clemson University,

and she stated that, "Civility and
ethics are cousins, they're not twins."

In other words, they're not
the identical same thing.

In other words, you can be civil
and still act unethically.

So you can take an unethical
course, but do it very civil.

So in the South we say, "Bless
your heart" that's uncivil words.

It's meant as a derogatory term,
but it's done in a very civil manner.

So you can act in an unethical
manner and still act civilly.

However, you can't be uncivil
and be ethical, at the same time.

So it doesn't work both ways.

So if you're uncivil, then, you're
definitely not acting civil

or ethically toward others.

Treating other with respect and care is
really foundational to ethical leadership.

Leading in a manner that respects
the rights and dignities of others.

– Mh-hmm, yes, it sounds like everybody
should be listening to this conversation.

Especially if we look at just
how people treat each other

in the streets, in Twitter, to each other, and
how they talk to each other anywhere.

This is a wider conversation,
than just the workplace.

But if we look at the workplace,

how can that lack of a civility
affect a professional workplace.

If we don't have those things?

I think you've kind of covered that.

But if we look at just a workplace, how
can it affect if we don't have those things?

– One thing to consider is it will,
obviously, break down workplace harmony.

Because you could have
employees attacking each other,

I don't want to say physically
attacking each other.

But attacking each other, maybe they're
physically attacking each other,

I don't know.

Either subtly or intentionally which,
again, can result in low employee morale,

decreased productivity, stuff of that nature.

It could also result, in the end
of the day, of employees

having less organizational commitment.

So they may be more apt to leave the firm

just because they're not
comfortable being there anymore,

in that type of environment.

– Yes, and if you really read the paper
and look at some of the comments,

so I'll go to that, it says that,
"The impact of incivility, it makes you

less motivated to do a good job or
get a job done as fast as possible."

Well, in that are you acting
in the most ethical manner?

I mean, if your motivation to do
a good job, that's not really ethical,

especially, for your clients
or for your employer in that.

We also noticed that supervisor incivility

had a much greater impact on job satisfaction,

than does co-worker incivility.

So when you go from the top down,

it seemed to impact our workplace morale

and our willingness to do a good job
for the firm or for your clients in that.

Because if you're rushing through,

you're definitely not doing a good job, in that

which is part of professionalism there.

– So maybe this next question, we can
look at it from two different perspectives.

We can look at things, maybe, you guys
can address how can leaders promote

a culture of civility in a workplace?

And then as a follow up, what if
you're somebody who is underneath

a leader who is not acting in a civil manner?

What if somebody is not acting in that way?

So, first, how can you promote it as a leader?

But then as an employee, what
if you're under that person

who is acting in that manner;
how can you address that?

– Amanda, you want to go first
or you want me to take it?

– Sure, I can take it.

So, obviously, tone at the top
is huge in organizations.

So leaders need to set a tone

that establishes employee
expectations, as it relates to civility.

And, then, they also need to demonstrate

what civility means within their organization.

So more of like a monkey see,
monkey do type of situation.

So one way that they can
establish employee expectations

is they can do it as part of the hiring stage.

So they should be spelling out, in job
descriptions, what's expected

from a conduct perspective.

And then when they're going through
hiring, they should be asking

the types of questions that gauge if
there's any triggers, within this individual,

that could make them more apt to
engage in incivil acts, in the workplace.

Because that could negatively
impact, like we already said,

the work culture, the work environment.

Another thing, like I said, that
leaders should be focusing on

is modeling civil behavior.

So making sure they're portraying
to their employees,

around them, what's expected of them.

They should be defining civility for the organization.

So they could, actually, put into
company policies what civility is,

and what the expectations are for employees.

So, essentially, when employees sign on,
sign their employment contracts,

they're signing on to agree
to whatever those policies are.

Another thing that leaders
could do, firms could do,

is to set up some type of a program.

Where there are rewards
and consequences for civil

versus uncivil engagement from employees.

So they could be rewarding
civil behaviors in some way.

They could have certain consequences,
or punishments for any uncivil behaviors,

that employees could be taking part in.

Additionally, as part of firm trainings, or
even webinars, or providing other tools

that could help individuals within
the firm bolster their engagement.

As it relates to civility, and
have them act less incivil

against the co-workers around them.

– And, as leaders, we have
to check ourselves as well,

I think, that's very important.

We can do training to others, but, sort of,
reflect, "Have I acted in a manner..."

Because, sometimes, we may
not realize how our actions are.

So survey your employees.

Ask your employees, "Have I said
anything that you felt demeaned you

or didn't take your opinion into account?"

Because if we do that 360 view, of ourselves,

we may think we're acting civilly, if that's
a word, I don't know, we'll go with it.

But, in essence, we may be saying things

or doing things that are perceived as uncivil.

For example, maybe, during a meeting,

you're texting while your employee
is trying to give their opinion.

While you may not think anything of it,

or you may not even care if
somebody else does it to you,

it may impact them negatively.

So having that open communication,
would really help establish that as well.

I mean, we do annual fire
safety training, for example.

Why can't we have an annual
reminder of civil actions and how

we should treat others, in the workplace?

– Feeding off of Doug's
communication comment there.

Another thought that came up
through a lot of the research

that I was reading through, as we
were putting together this paper

was that firms and organizations
should consider including civility,

as part of their feedback loop process.

So when they are doing
their coaching of employees

or doing performance evaluations
at year end or even, periodically,

throughout the year, civility
should be built into that.

So they should be assessing
whether or not the employee

is meeting the expectations
that the firm has set out.

And if they're not, they
should be coaching them

through how they can improve
themselves, as an employee.

Make an effort to make it part of your
corporate culture or your firm culture.

In accounting, we have firms, a lot of
times, so work to build that in

and just make it part of your everyday culture.

Where are we at with that respect to others?

– So what if you are an employee
who has a boss, or you see

the whole head of your organization,

you're, like, "These people are not
treating us in a civil manner."

And everything we've been discussing.

How can you address that as an employee?

Sometimes it's hard to approach
people who are acting in that manner.

What would you guys suggest

in a workplace, especially, if you're in
a situation like, "I can't get fired,

but I can't also work in this environment.

What do I do?"

– Well, first, definitely,
try not to take it personally.

I think, a lot of times, personal actions
have nothing to do with the individual.

So take a step back and say,
"Okay, what caused this?"

Especially, if it's out of the
norm for an individual.

If, all of a sudden, an individual is
acting a way that's just not the norm.

I think, we have to take a step back
and, definitely, not take it personal.

I know we've all heard the term
"It's business, not personal".

That's true, in many respects.

So take a step back and just say,
"Okay, was this directed at me?

Did they intend it toward me?

What impacts in their life, are they having
that may have caused that action?"

Because when we're in increased stress
situations, or financial issues, or fatigue.

Working 80 hours a week, can
make us say and do things

that maybe are out of our norm.

So what's the situation that's taking in?

Don't take it personally in that respect.

Sometimes it is personal,
but try not to, at first,

until you understand the
causing, the source of it.

– Another thing that an
individual could, potentially, do

is, kind of, feeding off of not taking it
personally, is taking a step back.

Maybe you're overreacting a bit,
and maybe you need to calm down

before you react in a way
that could be taken as incivil.

Because it creates a circular effect,
if you have that type of a reaction.

Another thing, if this is an individual that,
maybe, you have to work with, all the time,

and they are always acting in this way.

Maybe you need to set up
some personal boundaries,

and maybe you have to talk to a superior

and be like, "Oh, maybe, I shouldn't
work with this person,

we just don't seem to get along."

Or something of that nature.

So that you put yourself in more of
a safe and comfortable position.

And, at the end of the day,
if it escalates too much,

then you have to reach out for help.

Either reaching out to HR,
reaching out to somebody else,

within the leadership team
to discuss that situation.

So they can help you to diffuse
any retaliation that could occur

as a result of this experience.

– Do you think that in today's environment,

there are so many different movements
happening, that have been happening,

over the years, that have come to
the rise like Me Too, Black Lives Matter,

and those types of things.

And when we were talking about civility, do
you think that people have become afraid

to share their opinions because,
"Oh, no, will it offend this people?"

"Will it offend these people?"

"Am I afraid to say this thing?"

Do you think it has created a culture
where people are afraid to share

because they're afraid that they're
going to offend too many people?

– I personally, definitely, think that's true.

Even from an academic perspective,
standing in front of a classroom.

I feel like I have to filter pretty much every
sentence that comes out of my mouth

because I'm afraid I might,
unintentionally, offend somebody.

Especially because I tend to be
more of an outspoken individual.

So that's been, definitely, the last
year or two a learning point for me.

And it's just, like I said, trying
to filter so I don't, unintentionally,

because it's never intentional,
unintentionally, say something

that somebody just might
take the wrong direction.

– And I think we need to work on our ability,

if someone does say something that's off.

To go and speak to that person
because maybe they don't realize.

You got to remember, you're working
in a multigenerational setting.

Academia is a multigenerational.

Corporations are multigenerational.

And terms that may be perfectly fine, are
no longer perfectly fine to some people.

So instead of getting upset, or yelling,

or screaming or calling
them names, as a response.

Maybe we need to step back

and say, "Let's have a conversation
on what that means today,

and how we interpret that,
and what did you mean by it?"

And have those conversations,
where we can actually speak

to each other and disagree
and, maybe, agree to disagree.

Without getting to the point
that our response is uncivil,

to the person that we think
has offended us in that manner.

So that's something, as a society, we
probably do need to work on a little bit.

The ability to communicate
differing thoughts without resulting

to uncivil behavior in that.

– Because, I think, unfortunately, as a
result, we've become too quick

to, quote-unquote, "Cancel people"

as opposed to having just
conversations with them.

And I don't think anybody wants to be
remembered by the worst thing

they've ever said because we
are humans and we all can grow.

And, I think, if we become too quick to
cancel and forget about conversations.

We forget that humans are ever-changing
creatures and we grow, over time.

And this whole idea of canceling somebody

just because of one thing they've said,

as opposed to allowing people opportunities to grow,

is a problem in our society, unfortunately.

– It can be, and if you look back,
I think, we also have to be careful

about pushing our social norms, today,

on people 30 years ago or 40 years ago

because they were different
acceptable behaviors then.

And to say that you did that one time

makes you this person is
not, necessarily, true.

And I'm just thankful that we didn't
have cell phones when I was a kid.

When I was 16, there was no
such thing as instant recording.

They had the big box on their arm, so
you knew you were being recorded.

So a lot of those things wouldn't come out.

So we have to be careful
with social norms.

What's acceptable now, may have
been acceptable back then or not.

But we can't push today's norms
on people in the past, so to speak.

– So have either of you ever witnessed
a situation where a lack of civility

compromised ethical
principles, in a workplace?

And if you did witness it,
how was it handled?

How did you address it?

How did it happen?

– I'll pass this one over to Doug
because I know, personally,

that he's dealt with this,
previously, in a past employment.

That's what sparked his interest
in this topic, for this article.

– It did, the topic really came about, one,

you start to see it a lot in society
and, especially, with politics,

I hate to say that, but you see it a lot in
politics and governance of our country.

And, so, as a young accountant, and by
young, I mean fresh out of school,

first accounting career.

I don't want to say too much
because if someone does hear this,

that may have been there back
in those days, they don't relate it.

So I really didn't understand
maybe corporate norms

or how people should act.

So I worked for a smaller company,
and the manager that they hired in,

had a tendency to be what
we would label as uncivil today.

Back then I don't know that
we would have said it's uncivil.

But it happened, I think, a lot more
than what you would consider today.

But just the terms, derogatory.

Would say negative remarks,
very negative in the personality.

And once that began happening, I noticed
the culture really started to change.

Employees were less happy.

Our productivity did go down so much so
that the product that we were selling,

at the time, we started to see decrease.

I don't want to say the industry I was in,
and they would say, "Oh, I'm just joking."

But even at that, saying you're just joking
doesn't, necessarily, make everything fine,

especially, in a workplace setting.

It's not like you're sitting around
the table with your buds, so to speak.

So the way that we reacted,

our work activities became more
about how the manager was acting.

So if we went out to dinner, as
a group, instead of team building,

we were sitting there
complaining about management,

and how they were speaking and acting.

So you did see that drastic decline.

The production went down
so much so that we ended up

with only four employees
left, and we had 27.

So production, went down so much,
we had to lay off everyone.

As a 22 year old, I didn't really know
what was going on in that.

Luckily, I was one of the four
remained or unluckily,

I don't know which one you
would prefer to say there.

I wasn't let go and lost my job
because I needed income.

But there was four left when I quit,

about two months later
because I was just done.

My stress levels were
so high from that instance.

I was in the hospital, at 22, thinking
I was having a heart attack.

Because I didn't know what stress
attacks were or panic attacks.

So it really had not only an impact
on just the organization, but even

my personal health and wellbeing,
and the day I quit, I felt 100% better.

So it was like a weight was lifted.

So I think those situations
can have consequences,

especially, if they're extreme.

Where it's happening a lot, can not only
have consequences to the company,

but also to the individual's
just wellbeing, in that respect.

– Because it promotes just this toxic
atmosphere that just festers and festers,

and grows and grows, and
we know what toxicity does.

It doesn't kill you right away,
but it kills over time.

And, so, a toxic workout
environment can do that

and your example, Doug, shows that.

And I've been in work experiences

where a lot of people disliked one person,

and then instead of addressing
the behavior or addressing it,

we all just sat around talking
about that person,

and it doesn't help, it never helps.

And until you're outside of the situation,

you realize, wait, "That was not a good situation.

I shouldn't have been doing that."

– And as a 22 year old, you don't really
know, necessarily, what you should do.

So I think a lot of times the younger
generation may take that

in a way that causes
more harm to them.

I mean, if you've been around it
for a while, you sort of,

I don't know, become hard hearted,
I guess you'd take it as it comes.

But being a younger individual,
not having experienced that in life,

it made it a tough situation to be in.

And you notice you act differently
than what you should, necessarily.

And I think it's harder for us when it's
management than it is a co-worker.

You can distance yourself
from a coworker pretty much.

But when it comes to
your day-to-day management,

where you have to deal
with them constantly.

And they're your superior
and you may not know,

well, they have experience, maybe
this is just how it's supposed to be

as a young professional first coming out.

So it's very important that we understand

what proper behavior should be
and then how to react to it.

– Mh-hmm, I know some
organizations have ethics hotlines.

That you can call in and address
ethical behaviors like that.

I mean, it's important to know your
organization's HR management

and all those things, and see if
there's a way to address it, in a way.

Especially, if you're afraid of retaliation.

– Yes, that's a big thing, worrying that
management may end up taking it out.

Or how well does each layer of
management know each other?

I mean, if they're really good buddies, or
they go golfing, or to fashion events,

or whatever they do on their free time.

If you then turn around and go above,

employees may be fear
retaliation even further up,

than just their direct management in that.

– So I think we've pretty much shown

what it means to have how a civil
workplace or incivil workplace

can negatively affect
an organization's culture.

So, obviously, if you're having a civil workplace,

it can very positively affect the culture.

But how can organizations ensure
that their employee are adhering

to ethical principles and standards?

Because I know that it's not an easy thing.

But how can you do that, to not create
the atmosphere that you were in, Doug?

– Well, one is, definitely, we
were talking earlier self-observe.

Just to make sure that
we're not part of the problem,

that we're part of the solution.

But they can monitor
and observe, a lot happens.

I know it's a little bit more
difficult in today's world,

where we have the remote
workplace, so you don't see as much.

But, definitely, monitor and observe.

Listen to the conversations that
are going on, to make sure

that people are appropriate in that.

Open lines of communication.

Make sure your employees know
if something is bothering them,

that they can come to you
and speak to you about that.

Amanda, do you have
anything to add there?

– I'd say this is an area where ethical
leadership really comes into play.

Especially, from your top-level
management personnel.

There's, actually, a whole stream of
research that's looked at what impact

does ethical leaders have
on employees partaking

or engaging in unethical
or deviant behaviors.

And a lot of the main findings, from there,

have shown that if there is an ethical
leader, they can actually influence

how the employees act in the workplace.

And they can do that by holding them
accountable to the ethical standards.

By putting in place,
like I said before, rewards

and some type of a punishment system.

So there's, actually, research
that has shown, that followers

learn that ethical conduct is rewarded
and that incivility is punished.

And through doing that, they're
more apt to not act unethically,

and to follow the standards
or the expectations

that the firm has put into place.

Another thing that came from this
research is that the employees,

at a company, will also learn
from what they're seeing happen

to the co-workers around them.

So just by witnessing one of
their co-workers being rewarded

for being civil or being
punished for being uncivil,

will also drive them to act a certain way.

So to, again, follow the standards

or the expectations that have
been set up by firm leadership.

– And watch for turnover trends as well.

When you see turnover
happening, do those exit interviews.

Don't just say, "Hey, goodbye,
have a great life."

But actually take the time
to speak with your employee.

Find out why that turnover is taking place.

Is it due to those types of actions?

They may have absolutely
nothing to do with it.

Turnover happens for all sorts of reasons.

Better opportunity, just stagnant career,
want something new, things like that.

But in those exit interviews, speak
with them, see why they're leaving.

If it does have something to do
with the others' behavior,

either through management or coworkers.

What was the behavior?
What led you to this point?

Why did you not speak up?

Did you not feel comfortable speaking up?

Because that's a big indicator, too, as
managers, that, "Hey, our employees

aren't willing to come to us
and speak to that."

And then if you do witness it, talk
to the employee, what's causing it?

Maybe there's some underlying
stressors that are causing that behavior.

Either financial, ill parents that
they're caring for, and then look at ways

the firm can maybe support those individuals,

that are having struggles outside.

– So this has been a great conversation.

And as we wrap things up, I just
wanted to see is there any advice

or any final thoughts, you guys,
wanted to give to our audience,

before we wrap it up, today?

– I think one thing, go ahead Amanda.
– I was waiting for you this whole time.

– I was waiting for you this whole time.
– You, go ahead, I'll let you go first.

– I'm usually the follower
to Doug's leader, by default.

I would say my biggest advice
is just being self-aware.

Know where you're playing into
this workplace relationship.

If this instability is occurring,
whether you're the person

that's creating the instability
or you're the person

that's falling victim to that instability.

Because there's different and appropriate
responses to which player you are.

– I definitely agree with that.

Before we respond, take a step
back and think about your response.

So, especially, if you're angry or upset,

email is our worst enemy,
I think, in that respect.

Because it's easier to type
a response that's negative.

So type it up, and then an hour later read
it because I think you'll be shocked.

So I think it's great to express
yourself when you are angry.

Because it does lift that burden when
you can express it, just don't hit Send.

But if you do have that response

and you're angry, type it up, let it sit,
and then read it back to yourself.

And I think you'll be shocked
at how you come across

in many respects, in your response.

You're like, "Oh, my goodness, I would
never say that to a person face to face."

So I think a lot of our incivility does stem
from email or electronic communications,

where they're not as personal
as face to face in that.

So just double check, never
respond out of anger,

take a step back, and just review
how you're going to respond

and is it appropriate response.

– Mm, and, sometimes, we're angry
about something completely different

and we're just taking our anger out
on whoever just chatted with us.

So that whole self-reflection thing

that you guys have been talking
about, is a huge thing.

Because a lot of times we're frustrated
about things, but it has nothing

to do with our job or it has something to
do with something else that happened.

And we have to take that
moment to self-reflect,

and what you guys have
just said is a huge impact.

Take a minute, take a step
back, take a step,

or count to five before you respond.

Sometimes just taking that moment

before you respond means
the world of difference.

Especially, when you're responding
to co-workers, to people on the street.

If somebody bumps into you,

maybe, they were in a rush
because their friend is dying.

Or they bumped into you because they
are just a jerk and that's just who they are.

But that doesn't mean we need
to respond in anger back to them.

It's all about how we respond to people

and taking that moment to take a
minute, and those are all great things.

Thank you guys so much for
responding, for writing your great article.

Please, check the show notes, everybody.

We'll put a link to the article
and thank you guys.

Thank you, Amanda, Doug, thank you
so much for coming on today.

– Thank you for having us.
– Thanks for having us.

< Outro >

– This has been Count Me In.

IMA's podcast, providing you
with the latest perspectives,

of thought leaders from the
accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard,
and you'd like to be counted in,

for more relevant accounting
and finance education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.