< Intro >

– Welcome to another episode
of Count Me In.

Today's world is filled with uncertainty,

and with 2023 looking
like a challenging year,

organizations are feeling the squeeze.

Our guest, today, Kevin Herring,

president and founder of
Ascent Management Consulting.

Brings a wealth of knowledge
and expertise to our discussion,

on support functions within organizations.

We'll explore how businesses

can optimize their existing
resources, transform their thinking,

and redefine roles to survive
and thrive in these turbulent times.

It's time to reimagine
your organization's potential.

So let's dive right into
this essential conversation.

< Music >

Kevin, I want to thank you so much

for coming on the Count Me In podcast.

I'm really excited to have you on.

As we talk about support
functions within organizations.

And as we both know that the
markets, in 2023, are not looking great.

The futures are not looking great.

And it's going to put a squeeze
on many organizations.

And can we start talking about,
within organizations.

How you can leverage expertise,
within your organization,

as cuts and reorganizations are
going to have to start coming?

– Yes, that's a great question.

How do we do that?

And I think that you're right.

Everything that we read,
everything that we hear,

CEOs are saying that
they're hunkering down.

They're planning for a
rough 2023, possibly 2024,

and they really have to maximize,

maybe, a better way to put it
is to optimize the resources

that they have in the
organization to get through it.

And our support functions
play a critical role in that.

Every organization has a lot
of natural slack in the system.

And, sometimes, we don't realize it

until we really start to drill down
and look at what's working,

what's not working, that sort of thing.

And what we find is that
when you talk to people,

when you talk to teams, and ask them,

are they contributing everything that

they could possibly contribute
to the organization?

Not are they working as hard as they can,

but are they contributing everything?

Do they have capabilities
that are not being used?

Do they have information,
understandings of things

that are not being tapped?

And the answer is almost
always, "Absolutely, yes.

I'm doing the best I can with what I have,

but I could do so much more for
the organization, if they just let me."

And people and staff functions
play such a critical role.

Accountants, finance folks, IT,
HR, engineering, supply chain,

all those functions can play
a huge role in maximizing

or optimizing the use of our resources.

The people that actually produce the product.

The people that actually interface
with the customers directly.

And one of the ways they can do
that is really to take a different look,

maybe, than they have, historically,
about their role in the organization.

So here are a couple of ways to do that.

One is to think, when I go to work
each day, how do I see myself?

And this is not just a semantic exercise.

But do I see myself as an accountant

who just happens to work at XYZ
manufacturing company, for instance?

Or do I see myself as an
XYZ business person,

who happens to bring accounting
expertise to the organization?

And it's a different way of thinking
about my role, "Why I'm here?"

"What am I supposed to
do in this organization?"

Am I just supposed to perform a
bunch of tasks related to accounting?

Or am I actually supposed
to do things that,

sometimes, might even stretch me
a bit outside of my area of expertise.

To help the business,
overall, to be successful

and to look for those opportunities?

And, so, when we do that,
we start recognizing that

for an organization to get
the full use of our expertise.

We need to think of ourselves
in terms of how can we bring

our expertise to bear
on the critical situations

the organization is dealing with.

The critical issues they're
dealing with, "How do I do that?".

And that's a consulting role;
that's not an activity role.

That's not a compliance or
regulatory role, that's a consulting role.

That's where we're looking
for ways that we can help

those who are in the core business.

To produce more efficiently, more effectively,

to satisfy the customer better.

To produce better products, higher quality,

optimized, profitability, reducing cycle time,

all those sorts of things,
delighting the customer.

Those are all things that anyone

in a support function has
the ability to help with,

if they think of ways to apply their expertise

in solving existing problems,

and preparing the organization
to handle possible future issues.

So that's a shift in thinking, it's
also a change in how we operate.

Because now, if I'm a consultant, I
need to learn how to be a consultant.

I need to learn consulting skills.

I need to learn how to identify opportunities,

diagnose problems, gather data, assess it,

and determine how I can solve that problem.

Or determine if maybe I don't
have the expertise to solve it.

Who might have that expertise,

and be willing to source that for those

in the core business that are struggling.

That's a different role, for a lot of people.

– That is a different role.

And it's almost like within
your internal organization,

your title may be Chief Financial Officer

or Chief Staff Accountant.

But what you're saying is that your mindset

needs to be that of a consultant,
to better help the organization.

So how do you start changing that
mindset so that you can better help?

– Yes, well, first you have
to decide who your client is.

And this is a problem for a lot of people.

Most people, when you
ask them, "Who's your client?"

They point to their boss.

That's the client or the boss's
boss, the CEO or the CFO.

That's who they really serve in the organization,

and that's not an effective mindset to have.

Sure, those people play a critical role,

but as bankers, really as bankers.

People who provide the assets, the resources,

the budgets, the tools, and supplies,
and things you need to be able

to take your expertise and
apply it to the core business.

They want a return on those assets.

So they're going to extend the resources

for you to be able to use them

in a productive way, for the organization.

And, so, that begs the question
—Who is the real client?

Well, the places where you can have

the biggest impact are in production,

or in those who are interfacing
with the customer,

or closest to the core work.

That's really where the
biggest impact can be had.

And, so, if we see those
folks as the clients,

and then we learn to interface differently

and we interact with them.

We are always in the mode of
gathering data, gathering information,

and trying to look for
opportunities to help them.

Quite often, when things
get tough, we focus on cost.

We think, "Well, how can we reduce costs?"

And it's all about squeezing
the bottom line

instead of really focusing on profitability,

not that they're not related.

but, ultimately, how can we invest our time,

our existing resources, in a better way

to get a better return on our assets?

And, so, people with financial
expertise go into an organization

and, sometimes, it's very easy to see waste,

and redundancy, and opportunities

to help people work better, more effectively,

and make better business decisions.

And one of the classic ways

is when accountants and finance
people go into an organization,

and they start building the business
literacy of the people who work there.

So that they can make better decisions.

Not just the leadership, I mean,
that's certainly a place to start.

But once the leadership has the big picture,

what about all the people who
are executing in the front lines?

If they don't have the big picture,

they're making mistakes all the time.

They're operating in a vacuum,

and they're doing the best
they can with what they have.

But often they have so little,
they make a lot of bad decisions.

Or they're not given the resources

to be able to act in the
moment to solve a problem,

and the delays are costing
the business a lot of money.

So there are lots of opportunities
for our support functions to go in

and make a huge impact on the business,

in the next couple of years.

– Now there's one thing I
wanted to touch on a little bit,

as you talked about the real internal client.

Now that's something that I
think a lot of people overlook.

As many times we're always thinking,
"Oh, how can I please my boss?"

And looking at your boss as like the banker.

The person who gives you
all the resources you need,

is something that I don't think
many people speak about.

How can leadership help
the constituents under them

understand, "Hey, I'm not your client.

Your client is our customer
base is whoever we're looking at."

How can they help them get
that big picture in their head?

– Yes, one way they can do that is
to simply have the conversation.

Sit down and talk, frankly,
about what that role is,

what that relationship is.

As a banker, if I'm extending assets to you

to do something for the company.

I'm expecting some kind of
return on those assets.

So there may be some
promises that we have about

how you're going to use what
I give you in the organization.

What you're going to do for us.

How are you going to help the organization

realize a benefit from these assets

that I'm extending to you, as the banker?

And that's a great conversation to have.

And, sometimes, you're not able
to have that conversation

until folks go out into the core business

and start learning what goes
on closer to the customer,

and the production areas, and see
where some of the opportunities are.

And, then, they see how they can
apply their expertise more effectively.

And, then, they can come
back to the banker

and say, "I think I understand now
what I can do for the organization."

So when I look at the
resources you're giving me.

Here's what I need, more or less or whatever.

Here's what I need to be able to help

these people improve their performance."

Or whatever it is.

So I make a promise, if you extend
this amount of money to me to do,

for instance, a business literacy
program in the business.

I'm confident that we can now help people

make better decisions
down on the front lines.

That will have a profound impact

on our ability to produce with higher quality,

and lower cycle times, and so on,

and that's all going to go
to the bottom line.

So what is it that I need?

I'll make a commitment to you, to
make that much of an improvement

if you'll give me the resources to do it.

And, likewise, it's the same thing,
if I'm meeting with a client.

So I've been doing
consulting for a lot of years.

But I was in house
for many years before that.

And that's when this new idea developed,

and started to have some conversations

about what my role was
inside the organization

to those who we defined as my clients.

And I recognized that I
need to have conversations

with my clients about
what I can do for them.

And work things out with them

so that they give me what I
need to be able to help them.

There may be some things
I need, some resources.

There may be some information,
access to data, whatever it is.

And if I ask you, as my client,
if you'll give me those things,

I'll come back with a plan that
will help you with your business.

So let's work out those arrangements

so that we know what I'm promising to you.

And what you need to give me for
me to fulfill that promise to you.

– Yes, as I'm thinking about this,

employees are going to feel
the competitive pressure.

As you mentioned, CEOs
are feeling the squeeze.

They're going to have to tight squeeze.

I'm sure we've all read
about the beginning of 2023,

with what happened at Goldman Sachs.

What can employees do,

as they need to capitalize
on these competitive things

and be able to stay on top of things?

You've mentioned, a lot of that stuff.

But I feel like there's more that
they're going to need to capitalize on,

as the pressure continues
to rise with the market way it is.

– Absolutely, and part of
that is that education,

that business literacy process,
understanding the big picture.

And as a person on the front lines,

it's helpful for me to understand
what business we're in.

What the competitive pressures are.

How do we stack up against the competition?

And are we a big player,
are we a small player?

What are our strategic advantages
and what are our disadvantages?

What do we have to overcome
to be better competitors?

I mean, all those things are
important, for me, to understand.

Because when I do my work each day,

hopefully, I'm contributing
by looking for ways

to improve our competitive position.

I'm looking for ways that we can do things

more efficiently, more effectively.

We can streamline,
we can cut out redundancies.

We can find a breakthrough in being
better able to serve the customer

or deliver faster, and that sort of thing.

We need to get our core employees

to work on building the business

and helping the business
prepare for tough times,

and to help us to survive in it.

And we're not going to do that if we think

all the great ideas and all the great work

is going to come from the leadership.

It's just not going to happen.

We need a strong, cohesive, interdependent,

team of people all pulling together
and looking for ways to work together

to make these things happen.

And our leaders, our front line
leaders, our support functions,

all play a critical role in making that happen.

So that people have that orientation,

and the orientation of serving each other.

You talked about competing,

we're going to be competing in
a tough market, we figure,

in the next couple of years.

Well, if it's going to get tough, where
do we want competition to be?

Do we want it to be inside the organization

or do we want it to be us
against other providers

of these goods and services?

So let's stop competing
internally for resources

and let's start finding
ways to serve each other.

So that we optimize the resources
we have and use them to their fullest.

So that we're able to better compete,

against those who we truly
need to be competing against.

How many organizations are operating

where people are fighting,
having turf battles,

and fighting over office space,
or the copy machine, or the forklift,

or whatever it is that we're fighting over.

And, sometimes, even
undermining each other

for our own convenience?

I mean, how much does
that cost the business?

I mean, it's huge, it's absolutely huge.

And, so, we have to stop doing that.

We have to create a culture of commitment

to the success of the whole.

– Mh-hmm, and that's got to be really hard.

When certain places there's
that fight to get to the top,

as opposed to let's help
each other get to the top.

And, I think, a lot of businesses
don't have that atmosphere,

but we need to help each
other in order to succeed.

– Right, that helps take all the egos out.

And just say, "Look,
we all play different roles.

We have different sets of responsibilities."

But when it comes down to it, we all
need to choose accountability

for the success of the whole business

if we're going to make this work.

And if we don't, we're undermining
our ability to successfully compete

in the near term, for sure,
probably, in the long term.

– So when you're looking at
creating that cohesive team.

I think that word you just used,
accountability is the key thing.

How do you create that real accountability

and what does that look like?

– Yes, so often we talk about
holding people accountable.

We say if we need to get better performance,

more results, we need to hold
people more accountable.

We need to get things more into control.

And what that, generally, does is

it creates an environment of micromanagement

and compliance responses from employees.

And I like to say it's pretty hard
to really hold people accountable,

in the sense that we hold them accountable

and still enable them to be responsible.

Because the minute we start
taking charge of something.

We tell somebody, "I can't trust
you to get the work done.

So I'm going to check up on you.

I'm going to follow up with you.

I'm going to make sure you get it done."

The minute that we do that,
we've taken responsibility for it.

We've taken it away from the individual.

Now they're just a pair of hands
doing what we tell them to do.

And we've taken away their sense
of responsibility and commitment,

and they're operating out
of a sense of a need

to comply to keep their jobs.

And there's a huge difference in performance

between those who are operating
just to comply and keep their jobs.

Versus those who are, intrinsically, motivated

and openly choosing their own
accountability to their teams,

to their coworkers, to their leaders,
and the organization, overall.

So it's important for accountability
to be shaped the right way.

To where we orient
people to the big picture.

Here's what we all need
to accomplish as a business.

Here's how our team fits into that.

Here's how our team
interfaces with other teams,

to help us produce whatever it is we
produce or deliver to the customer.

And then inside of our team,

let's make sure we're clear
about what each person does

and how it impacts everybody
else on the team.

And make some
commitments to each other

about how we're going to work.

So that the team can work effectively,

and find ways to improve the
way that we get the workout.

And then the next phase of that,
then, is to take that team

and say, "Okay, how do we now help

those around us to do
what they need to do?"

We're interfacing with these
other teams in the organization.

They have work they need to produce.

What can we do to serve
them and help them,

so that they can do what they need to do?

It's the same mentality we have
to have with our customers.

What am I delivering to my customer?

It's satisfying a need.

My customer is trying to do
something, they want something.

So how do I help them get what
they need, that satisfies them

by their standard, not by mine.

Internally, we have to do the same thing.

As employees, working together as teams,

interfacing with each other,
it has to be the same mentality.

– Yes, it really does.

And one thing that I'm thinking about,

as we talk about making sure
that everybody sees the big picture.

A lot of times it's hard
to apply the big picture.

If, let's say, you're a front line worker

and you have a lot of activities
you're doing, every single day.

It's very hard to understand those activities,

as becoming results to help
the overall organization.

To help the big picture.

How do you bridge that gap?

– I had a group of people I was
working with, a finance group,

and we were doing this in the organization.

Trying to increase individual
understanding of the overall business.

And I remember the finance manager

saying, "Yes, we did this in another company

and we decided that everybody,

to a certain level, needed
to have the big picture.

Those who are like janitorial staff
and other people,

they didn't need to know, they didn't care.

They weren't going to have an impact.

And I said, "Wait a minute,
you can't pick and choose

who is going to make the most impact,

in any given moment in time."

Everybody makes a contribution

and otherwise we wouldn't
be paying for it.

We're investing in people
to do things that help us

get done what we need
to do for the customer.

So everybody needs to
understand the big picture,

to make the right decisions.

And, so, even if you're looking
at the janitor makes decisions

about how efficiently they
use chemicals, for instance.

Or how efficiently they do the work,

and what they do to provide the environment

such that it's ready for people to work,

and perform, and that sort of thing.

I mean, whatever it is they do
they can do it well,

and they can have a sense of satisfaction

that they're contributing to the whole.

Everybody needs to be part of that,
you can't exclude people.

It's one organization,
not a two-tiered system

where you have the primary class

and the secondary class,
that doesn't work.

– Yes, it's hard because our
society looks at people that way.

And you have to break that down

when you get into an organization.

– Yes, and, so, one of the
things that works really well

is to bring people together.

I always find that when
you bring a team together.

And you say, "Okay, let's
educate each other.

Let's talk about what each
does in the organization."

And a lot of times people
say, "Well, that's obvious,

we know what each other does."

And I say, "No, everybody take
just two or three minutes,

highlight, here's what I do for,
not the tasks I perform.

Here's what I actually do in terms
of output for the organization.

Here's what I accomplish.

Here are the things that get
in the way of that the most,

that make my job difficult."

And as people understand that
the light bulbs start turning on.

They go, "Oh, I could
probably help you with that."

"I could probably help you with that."

And pretty soon they start talking about

ways they can serve each other.

And if we get them into
that mindset in that activity,

they start making
commitments to each other.

About how they're going to help
each other in the coming months.

And, then, we do follow-up conversations

and give each other feedback.

We can start talking
about how we're doing,

how much better we're doing,

and where we still need work.

And, then, we can start
talking about opportunities

to create breakthroughs,

as we start looking at the overall
systems that we operate in,

and identify the ones that are making

our work the most difficult.

And we identify where we might
be able to streamline something,

or reduce steps, or simplify, or whatever.

Do things concurrently,
instead of doing one,

and then waiting for the next,
and waiting for the next.

There are a lot of things that we can do.

Once we get people having the education,

it's called the business education,

to understand the work that
they're in and how it matters.

I use the example a lot, in sports,
you look at sports players,

football, for instance, since
we're in Super Bowl season.

Everybody, on a sports team,

is well aware of the competition
and their competitive position.

The advantages and
disadvantages each team has.

Their strengths and weaknesses.

They know every player.

There are statistics all over the place,

about what people are good at
and what they're not so good at.

And they use that information

to create a game plan to
defeat the other team.

And, then, during the game,

there are all kinds of indicators
that tell us how we're doing.

So that we can make adjustments

and look for ways to create
a breakthrough, in the game,

if we're behind or struggling,

and we don't do that very well in business.

But Sports is a business,

just as much as any other
organization, for-profit organization.

We're all in it to make money

and be able to meet the
needs of the customer.

So that we have the ability to
remain viable in the marketplace.

So if we apply those
same principles at work.

We find that we need to educate
people about the game plan.

We need to help them understand
what the competition is.

What's at stake each day,
each month, each quarter,

and what are the things
that we need to accomplish.

And then how are we, at a tactical level,

going to contribute so that we can succeed?

– Yes.
– Those are important

conversations to have, and they're
not often had in organizations.

Especially traditional organizations,

where at the top of the
organization pyramid;

all the knowledge, all the understanding

of the big picture, the departments.

How the systems, in the organization,

work together to produce the product,

and satisfy the customer,
all those kinds of things.

The authority to make decisions,
they all tend to reside at the top,

and then get delegated to
lesser and lesser degrees

down through the organization.

So by the time you get to the people

on the front lines, doing the work.

Who have information, by the way,

that nobody else has because
they're doing the core work.

They're interfacing with the customer.

And they have to make decisions
in the moment, all the time,

that have a huge impact on the business.

And, yet, they're the least knowledgeable

about the overall organization,

the impact their decisions are having.

And, so, they have to make
those decisions in a vacuum.

And, quite often, they don't have permission

to make a lot of decisions.

And, so, the decisions don't get made at all.

So that's by default,
whatever happens, happens.

Or there are huge delays

while they try to get
permission to do something.

Or they feed information up the line,

and hope somebody somewhere
does something about it.

That's costing businesses
an incredible amount of money.

Which is why when we work
with people, they're astounded

when they get a 50% improvement
in performance from a team.

How is that possible?

Is it because there's so much slack
in the system and you just don't see?

But when you find that
people are working differently,

more effectively together,
the results are astounding.

– Yes, that is so true.

So this has been a wonderful
conversation, Kevin,

and I just wanted to ask one last question.

In light of the squeeze that
is coming with the market,

and restructuring of organizations
that are coming.

What advice would you give to somebody

on the other side of a restructuring?

And you're still at the organization,

and suddenly you have the responsibility

of three people now because
two other people were let go.

What advice would you give to that person,

as you're trying to look in things,
in the aftermath of that.

– Well, the first thing I would do
is I'd pull my team together

and I'd say, "Okay, let's regroup.

We've all been through a lot.

There's a lot of emotion that we're
experiencing, loss of teammates,

increased workload, increased expectations.

It's a tough spot to be in."

And to be authentic about it,

not to paint a rosy picture of
everything, and spin the message,

and pretend like everything is great.

And nobody has experienced
anything challenging, recently.

But to be authentic about it

and say, "Look, we've gone
through some tough times.

That's a lot of turmoil to deal with.

And I know that you're, probably,
feeling a lot like I am about it.

You have an empty feeling, maybe,
about the people who are gone.

You feel concerned for them.

You have a little bit of anxiety
about our own future,

and how things are going to work out for us.

This is all natural, and I'm not immune

from it any more than you are.

I mean, we all have to
deal with those things.

And the reality is we have to figure out

how to make things work going forward,

so this doesn't happen again.

We need to really figure out how
we can produce, at a higher level.

And not, necessarily, pushing
ourselves to work crazy fast

or ridiculous numbers of hours.

But we have to think smart,
so let's pull together.

Let's analyze the work that we do.

Let's look at the processes

and the systems that we're dealing with.

Let's map some of those and let's identify

what kinds of things are getting in the way,

and let's see if we can't tackle
those and create a breakthrough.

Either in profitability
cycle time, customer response,

or quality of product or service.

Let's go through and figure out
where we can create a breakthrough

in the work that we do.

So that we can have a positive contribution

to the business, to help us be more competitive.

Because the marketplace is unforgiving

and they've just spanked us, and
we don't want that to happen again.

We want to be competitors
in that marketplace.

And if we're smart about it,

this is an asset that we have
that we can leverage,

is our way of working together

that can push us ahead of our competition.

And we can, actually, maybe benefit

from this difficulty because maybe
we can pull ahead of them.

Because we've done some smart things

in the face of these challenges."

That's what I do.

I think people need to just pull together

and face the reality of what's happened,

and the challenges associated with it,

and all that it does to us internally.

And to say, "Okay, what are
we going to choose

to do now going forward?"

And that's what a leader does.

A leader says, "Look,
I'm no different than you.

I'm not going to be phony about it.

I'm going to tell the truth,
this is stressful for me.

And I'm going to choose to do the
best I can for us to be competitive.

And I'm inviting you to work with me

for us to all to work together,
and do this as a team."

– Yes, I agree, and I think a lot of people

are going to need to hear that,
as we go forward.

Thank you so much, Kevin, for
coming on the podcast today.

I really appreciate you
sharing your expertise with us.

– Thanks for having me.

< Outro >

– This has been Count Me In,
IMA's podcast, providing you

with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders

from the accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard
and you'd like to be counted in,

for more relevant accounting
and finance education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.