< Intro >

– Hello and welcome to
another episode of Count Me In.

Today we're diving headfirst into
the complex and ever-evolving

world of cryptocurrencies.

We're excited to have
Jason Cozens with us.

The CEO and founder of Glint, 
a global fintech platform.

He's an expert in cryptocurrencies
and alternative currencies,

and he'll be sharing his extensive knowledge

about the current state of the market.

Why cryptocurrencies exist,

in the first place, and their inherent risks.

He'll also shed light on the appeal of gold,

as a stable, risk-off asset, 
and how it's been modernized

for everyday transaction 
with technologies like Glint.

So if you're curious about 
the state of cryptocurrencies,

or the power of gold, as an alternative,

this episode is a treasure
trove of information.

Let's dive in.

< Music >

Jason, I just want to thank you so much

for coming on the podcast today.

Really excited to have your
expertise around cryptocurrencies

and alternative currencies, in the market.

And maybe we can start off by 
discussing cryptocurrencies

and the state of that market, 
as it stands right now.

– Yes, sure, well, I mean, before 
we start looking at exactly

the state of the market, now.

I think it's also important to understand

why the market even exists

and, then, just to touch on that for a second.

Why do we even have cryptocurrencies?

My movement into alternative 
currencies started in 2008

like a lot of people's journeys did for this.

Where they realize that banks
are not risk-free deposits of funds.

When you put your money in the
bank, it ceases to be yours.

That money is put at risk, and it is lent out,

it's a liability of the bank.

And that's a problem for people
and a problem for businesses

that have money, and want to be
able to put it into those banks.

And, of course, we get all kinds of
insurances from the FDIC et cetera.

But, at some point,  they're
going to change the rules,

and they've already passed legislation 
called bail-in rather than bailout.

Which means that when, next time,

there's a banking crisis, instead of 
the government's bailing out the banks.  

They might say to, actually, "We're 
going to do bail-in this time."

Which means that if you've got a 
significant amount of money,

in the bank, they swap that
for shares in the bank.

Which you may or may not get 
back in a few years' time,

and that's what they did
in Cyprus, they tried it.

They've passed the legislation.

So it's something we've 
all got to be cognizant of.

And, then, of course, inflation,
and very few commentators

are talking about one of the
biggest drivers for inflation,

of course, is money printing.

And inflation is now rip-roaring through
the economy, it's affecting individuals.

It's affecting businesses.

I thought it was bad back in 2008,

when governments are trying 
to keep it at around 2%.

Over my lifetime, the dollar 
has lost more than 85%

of its purchasing power, 
let's just think about that.

85% of its purchasing power,
and that was before actually

the surge in inflation, I calculated that.

And, so, there's a need or people
have been looking for something

to hedge against systemic risks.

They've been looking for something

to hedge against inflation.

And, also, generally speaking,

the financial system is getting better

at payments and cross-border payments.

But, again, they're looking for 
efficiencies with that, too.

So that's why we're in this space.

Innovations around Bitcoin,
model a lot on gold

and other types of cryptocurrencies now,

like Ethereum and even stablecoins,

of what created what was a $3 trillion market.

And, obviously, what we've seen this year

is that $3 trillion market completely collapsed

to below a trillion dollars.

Which is a huge drop for anybody involved

in the cryptocurrency industry.

But, yes, one trillion is still 
better than the kick in the teeth,

and it's a significant industry, still,
and I don't see it going away.

And there's been a huge amount 
of money invested in that.

But we all know it's been volatile.

We've seen that volatility on
a weekly, sometimes, daily basis.

We've seen huge swings
in the value of Bitcoin.

For instance, it's gone down from $65,000

down to, I think, we're currently at
about $17,000, something like that.

And, again, that volatility is huge.  

But previous to that, of 
course, we saw huge gains.

I mean, it went from three or $4,000,

over a few years up to $65,000.

So you can see the attraction and
why people got involved in that.

Hey, it's this fantastic growth story,

and we can handle the volatility

in the belief that that growth story
is going to continue forever.  

But, I think, what happened

when Russia invaded
Ukraine was really telling.

It was the time when we saw 
that, actually, cryptocurrencies

are definitely what I consider a risk on asset.

They're a speculative asset 
that may or may not work,

may or may not stand the test of time.

There's lots of optimism around it

and, certainly, lots of ideas
around how it can benefit society.

But it's very much still a risky asset,

as opposed to say something about 
other alternatives like gold,

which are just considered
slightly more boring,

but risk-off assets and stuff.  

So when Ukraine was invaded by Russia,

then we saw the crypto price plummet,

and we saw the gold price go up, for instance.

But there are lots of advantages around this.

Apart from even the hedging against inflation

and the hedging against the systemic risk,

and the payments technology, 
just generally speaking.

The tech, the ability to program these currencies,

is what's exciting a lot of people, isn't it?

So I definitely think that
crypto is here to stay.

But we've all got to understand
what it is and understand its nature.

– Yes, we do have to understand what it is.

Because you don't know it,

it doesn't seem as solid as something 
like holding money in your hands.

But then we all know that money

doesn't have any backing anymore.

And, as you've already mentioned, the inflation

and the things with banks 
can be can be risky, as well.

So as organizations are looking at

to getting into alternative currencies,

are there benefits that they can look at?

You've already mentioned a lot of risks,

but there have got to be 
benefits to getting into this.  

– Yes, there are huge ones, as I said.

I mean, some alternatives do 
protect against inflation.

I mean, you can't get any 
worse than fiat currency,

in my mind, when it comes to inflation.

I mean, it's the most 
terrible product in the world,

when it comes to maintaining
its purchasing power.

So companies, especially ones
who are long-term, doing well,

where they put that money,

in order to maintain your purchasing power.

Whether you're a company or an individual,

you're having to make risky investments.

Just to make sure you're maintaining

your purchasing power of 
what's on your balance sheet,

and that really, for me, is wrong.

So we've all got to look for

how alternatives can help us
make that fight.

And, as I said, transactions and payments,

I mean, a lot of people are using
cryptocurrencies for payments,

and it could be stable 
coins as well, for instance.

Although we've got to remind ourselves

that a stablecoin is still backed 
by the inferior, in my mind.

And current fiat currency is no different

just because it's a stablecoin,

it's still losing, its purchasing
power over time.

But at least it has the technology
wrapper around it with a stablecoin.  

So using cryptocurrencies, whether it's Bitcoin,

or a stablecoin, to be able to move value

from one part of the world to another,

obviously, there's growing use of that.

There's trillions of dollars' worth 
of transactions, now, happening

and, sometimes, they're used
for in real need.

People trying to get money out of
difficult regulatory environments.

People are worried in China now

about what's going on with their premier,

and is it a good business, 
friendly place anymore or not?

And even though they've banned cryptocurrency,

over there, mining et cetera.

A lot of companies are still

trying to use that to move money offshore.

But, then, just genuinely, trying
to move money quickly,

and it can be used for that.

So, yes, they're all the benefits
that we're all trying to find.

I would say, though, that the idea that

it's a get rich quick thing,

you got to decide what business you're in.

Are you in the business of making
widgets or providing this service?

Or you're in the business of
using your hard-earned profits

to speculate in markets?

I don't really see that as a benefit.

– Yes, that is really tough

as you're trying to weigh
the benefits versus the...

So you discuss a lot about 
gold as a risk-off asset.

And if anybody's heard
you talk, in the news,

you talk a lot about the
benefits of having gold.

And maybe we can talk a little bit about that,

and how can that benefit organizations,

or people, or individuals who are looking

to have a more not-as-risky 
assets in their portfolio.

– Sure, well, I mean, gold is valued, globally,

by just about everybody on this planet.

No matter what culture
or region that you're from.

No matter what demographic you're in,

everybody understands the value of gold.

Because gold has been
the ultimate store of value

for, literally, thousands of years.

And it has a proven track record
in holding its purchasing power.

I mean, in the time, as I said, the dollar,

and the pound, and the euro, et cetera

had lost 85% of their purchasing 
power over my lifetime.

Gold's purchasing power
went up by over 500%.

And, in fact, it still buys you
what it did 2000 years ago,

never mind just 50.

So there is nothing that
compares with gold,

when it comes to store of value.

But, of course, what about
the medium of exchange?

And a lot of people say,

"Well, gold, it's a great store of value,

but it's a useless medium of exchange."

You can't exactly pop down
to your local supplier

and buy some goods with your gold.

You can't chip that off,

they're not going to accept
the coins, et cetera.

Well, actually people need to wake up.

There are lots of changes in the space

and, certainly, Glint has built technology

that allows gold to be used as money.

So, for instance, in Glint's case,

what we've done is built a kind of payments

and trading technology, 
that effectively allows you

to diversify some of your 
working capital into gold.

So you can have a Euro wallet,
a dollar wallet, a pound wallet,

and a gold wallet.

You can buy as little as a penny,

or a million, $10 million worth.

We've fractionalized the
ownership of that gold,

so it's easy to use it as money.

And we've even implemented
payment instruments

that allow people; this is 
a MasterCard, for instance,

linked to a Glint account,

that allows me to spend my gold in real time.

We're the first company in the world

to enable physical gold,
real allocated gold,

that I own, to be used in 
payments in real-time like that.  

But you do have to be careful,
like a lot of these things.

With the cryptocurrencies or with gold,

you got to be careful of the nuances,

some of that can be very important.

So when you buy gold,
you got to ask yourself,

what kind of gold are you buying?

Are you buying real gold

or are you buying paper gold?

Is the gold that you're buying
the physical gold?

Is it allocated to you?

Do you legally own it?

Or is it unallocated gold,
which you, kind of, own

but it can be lent out by the custodian.

You don't really want that really, do you?

Because when the music
stops, it might not be there.

Or are you buying futures
options, derivatives?

Are you buying ETFs?

Where you're buying a share in a fund,

which may or may not be backed by gold.

And I believe, and what we've
built Glint around is that

you should own allocated gold,
that's gold that you own,

and it's no one else's liability.

But, yes, we've built this system

that allows it to be used
as everyday money. 

And, so, whether it is diversifying 
your portfolio, your savings.

Whether it's allowing some
of your ready money

to be stored somewhere safe,

protecting you from inflation, et cetera.

Or whether it's diversifying 
some of your working capital,

your balance sheet, if you're a company,

then there are lots of reasons
why you might want to own gold

– So this isn't something that many people

are talking about or saying at all.

And as you were saying that
it made me think of the old days

where gold was the standard.

Where everybody wanted
to get their hands on it.

You had the gold rush in 
San Francisco, California,

in the 1800s, and all of those things.

How can you have gold as your backing

and still be able to spend with it.

Even you have your card
and the ways you described,

but it seems like it can still tank
just like everything else, right?

– Well, it's really important
to understand that when things

are priced in dollars, or pounds,
for instance, in the UK, or in euros.

When they're priced in that fiat currency,

then the confidence in those fiat currencies

can, of course, go up and down as well.

So the confidence in the dollar
is going up and down every day

but generally down.

So it's up and down, up and down,
generally down, and that's why

its purchasing power
is decreasing over time.

But gold is just gold, it doesn't change.

It's the same thing as it was yesterday,

as it was 1000 years ago.

It's created when two neutron 
stars collide in space.

So its nature, it cannot be changed,

which is why we love it.

Because, in my mind, anything
that its nature is defined

by human being is subject to
change or subject to corruption,

even if with the best intentions, originally.

So, yes, you've got to understand
that, effectively, if you're in gold,

but you're working in a foreign currency,

then you've got to be aware of 
those foreign currency fluctuations.

But it hasn't tanked in 2000 years.

Is it going to tank tomorrow?

There's no way it's going to tank tomorrow;

I can bet my life on it.

It might drop by 10% or
something like that, over time.

It's medium monthly variation is half
a percent or something like that.

It's certainly not as volatile as cryptocurrency.

Cryptocurrencies will get there
someday, I'm sure over time,

and more mass adoption

and less affected by whales
within the system, et cetera.

That's one of the advantages of gold

is that it's owned by everybody.

When I say everybody, it's owned
by lots of people globally.

And from the poorest person

on the street, in some parts of
the world, to central banks,

remember still back their currency,

they back their power by holding gold.

A lot of them do the U.S. still does.

And Russia was building up gold
over the last 10 years, so has China.

I don't think there's any
coincidence about that.

Their actions today are, I'm sure, planned

and carefully thought through 
over the previous decades.

And gold-backed money,
until relatively recently,

I mean, I don't consider myself that old.

But 1970 was when I was born

and the dollar was backed by gold, then,

and it was backed by gold until 1971.

And I know some people might
have, as I get older, I start to realize,

I start to understand, now, 
how whole generations of people

can be born into scenarios.

Where they have no understanding

or appreciation of what
went just before them

and, actually, that can lead 
to all kinds of challenges.

For instance, how many of the audience,

who are listening to this podcast,

have had a mortgage on a property

when interest rates were over 5%?

Very few, I'm guessing.

And, yet, in my parent's generation,

there were interest rates of up to 12%.

And lots of people were
used to paying mortgages

with interest rates at around 5%.

But gold-backed money, until 1971,

and we didn't come off the gold standard

because gold wasn't very good.

We came off the gold standard

because the very fact that gold was awesome.

Nixon loved gold,

but the problem was that they
couldn't afford the Vietnam War.

They couldn't afford the 
promises to the electorate,

so they were printing money.

And De Gaulle, the French president,

said, "I think you're printing more dollars

than you have gold, guys.

So I'll tell you what I'm going to do.

I'm going to use my Navy
to come into New York,

and swap my pallet loads
of dollars for gold."

And that's what was happening in 1970, 1971,

the amount of gold in Fort Knox was going down.

And Nixon was like, "We can't lose all our gold."

So they went away to think about it

and decided, "Let's just 
come off the gold standard."

And they did that, temporarily,

it was supposed to be a temporary window.

And, of course, Nixon ended up
getting thrown out,

and we live, today, with the
repercussions, consequences, of that.

Which is that we're off the gold standard.

Governments, central banks, all over the world,

print as much money as they
want to their heart's content.

And, actually, it ends up
being the greatest tax

that no one talks about.

Because if you're a saver,
if you're a responsible saver,

and you're putting your money away.

And you don't want to put it
at risk, in the stock market,

because a company can go to zero.

A fiat currency can go
to zero, and they do.

So the dollar and the pound
have already lost 85% the value,

so they're nearly at zero, anyway.

Gold never does, that's why
people are already attracted to it.  

But what seems to have just
gotten lost in translation

or missed is that everyone's rushed

towards creating alternatives based
on technology, and dismissing gold.

Without realizing that, 
actually, companies like Glint,

and we're not the only ones,

there are stablecoins, and stuff like that,

based on these types of things,

but using technology to make the 
ultimate form of money, the future.

Back to the future of money
I'd, maybe, call it.

But, certainly, giving everybody
their own personal gold standard.

And our vision, certainly, is a world

where everyone has an equal 
opportunity to prosper.

And we think that bottom-up returns

to [indistinct] money is the only way

we're going to get to any kind of fair society,

and governments are not going to do it.

So private individuals,
directors, and companies,

we need to take control
of our money ourselves.

And, I think, this whole explosion
in innovation and stuff

is just fantastic for people and businesses.

You can always rely on people's
innovation to come to the rescue.

But there are challenges with all
these things, as you've intuited.

There are problems, aren't there?

With implementing these
new things into businesses,

and that people have got to be very careful

about what they're doing.

They want to think carefully 
before they jump, I think.

– They do have to think 
carefully before they jump.

And that's a perfect segue thinking about

your accounting and finance team.

Who would need to take into consideration

all of these elements, as they're
putting these on the balance sheet.

What are some considerations

that they do need to take into consideration

as they're implementing this?

And are there best practices 
they should think about?

–Yes, sure, well, I mean, you've got 
to be thinking about four things.

You got to be thinking about the 
volatility, this is a risk on.

If you're cryptocurrencies
it's a risk on assets,

if it's gold, it has a 
level of volatility as well.

So you got to be thinking about that.

You got to be thinking about 
anti-money laundering issues,

especially, around cryptocurrencies.

Is there a possibility that the cryptocurrency

you're bringing in to your business

or to your life has been the proceeds of crime?

You've got to look at the 
regulatory issues around tax.  

Around the nature of money itself.

Is it cryptocurrency or gold money?

Or is it property?

Or is it security?

And we've got to look at the systems

and processes we've got in the business.

Because a lot of those are designed
for the incumbent system,

not for the new one.

So, yes, we've got to look, very
carefully, at those in a bit more detail.

So regulatory wise, well, 
you can lobby governments

to make changes and those businesses

that might be listening that 
have some influence there.

You got to be talking to 
government officials about that.

Obviously, there's been a lot of change,

or concerns about what changes

there are in the elections in the U.S.

and it's quite obvious that Republicans

seem to be a little bit more 
cryptocurrency friendly,

compared to the Democrats.

But either way, both parties
are going to see

some clampdowns on the
cryptocurrency industry.

My appeal to governments and regulators

out there is stop being vague.

Businesses and people need 
regulatory clarity on this.

So there are chances that, I 
think, the problem in the U.S.,

at the moment, and any government

where they don't have a leading majority,

is that any crypto-related 
bills might not get passed.

Unless there's a bipartisan belief

in what needs to get done,
and that's an issue.

I don't want to get political about things.

But, generally speaking, two parties,

when they're so far away from each other,

and they can't find a good center
then, actually, nothing gets done.

But we do need that clarity.

So I appeal to regulators and governments

around the world to try and do that.

Because, I mean, the SEC chair, Gary Gensler,

has said that he believes

the majority of cryptocurrencies are securities,

and in the UK they see it as property,

and I'm sure a lot of your 
listeners think it's money.

So we've got to get to the bottom of that.

But when you're diversifying
your balance sheet

to include alternative assets,

you've got the challenges 
around your reporting currency,

and what effect that might
have on your EBTDA.

Losses may occur, even if only temporarily.

And, of course, when you're doing your audits

and your accounts that can lead

to quite a misleading view 
or misleading information

for readers of those financial statements.

I mean, you can have a situation
where your assets look great,

because cryptocurrencies just shot up.

Or it could be that the 
cryptocurrencies just bottomed

the day before you had
to submit your accounts.

So, what is happening?

How do you deal with that?

Capital gains tax.

I see gold as money, I don't
see it as an investment,

it's just a store of value.

And if you said to me,
I'm in London, at the moment,

so if you said, "Jason, come
over to the States,

and let's have a week here,
let's discuss cryptocurrencies,

and alternative currencies,
and gold in more detail."

I might buy £10,000 worth of dollars,

and I take those dollars,
maybe I've got 12 or $13,000.

And I come to the U.S., and you get there,

and you say to me, "Hey, Jason,

don't worry about spending
anything, I'm feeling great.

I just won the lottery, so 
I'm paying for everything."

And then I come back with
my money after a week

and the pound is, we've had
another Brexit problem,

or another prime minister has been elected

and another one has resigned,
and the pound has plummeted.

Suddenly, I now have
17,000, when I exchange

my dollars back for pounds, I've
got more pounds than I left with

there's a capital gain there.  

But do I have to report that to 
the tax authorities et cetera?

There's lots of exemptions around 
using money in relation to tax.

But there isn't with 
cryptocurrencies or with gold.

Because the traditional view 
of gold is a bar of gold,

is an investment, traditionally.

The views on cryptocurrencies are varied.

So, as we say, some see
them as different things.

So you got to be careful about that.

And you've got to get your advice,

in your own region, about 
how we should be treated.

And probably taking the safest approach

to say, "Well, we'll assume 
there has to be a tax on this,

a capital gains tax or whatever,

we're going to put that money aside."

Even if you don't submit it,
every region has got to deal

with their own situations there,
but you must be cognizant of it.

and how do you track all the fees?

How do you track the fluctuations 
in the currency's value?

I mean, with cryptocurrencies
there can be quite big gas fees,

for instance, around some things,
and the fees can be different

depending on what's going on the network

or the blockchain is busy at the time,

suddenly, those fees are going up.

You've got a bit of a difficult situation

where you're trying to manage all of that,

manage that volatility, manage the
counterparty risk in terms of AML.

So there are a couple of different approaches

to this, though, you can take
a hands-off approach

where you go, "Look, we're 
going to take any crypto

that comes to us as a business.

We're not going to actively go out there

and buy crypto but what we might 
do is accept cryptocurrency,

in lieu of payments of services or products.

You might do that with gold,

or you might do that with cryptocurrency.

And what you could say,
you could choose a vendor

and exchange that for you automatically.

So you might not even
touch the cryptocurrency.  

You say, "Look, I still want
the currency of my residence,

I still want my default currency

for my accounts to come into our system.

You can pay me in cryptocurrency or gold.

But my vendor or exchange
that I'm working with

will convert that to dollars that
comes in and that's obviously

the easiest way to deal with this.

And, so, nothing really changes 
for you in the back end.

But if you do want to take
that hands-on approach.

You got to think about three things,

you've got to think about, 
well, what treasury systems

and processes do I have to put in place?

What are my banking relationships
going to say about this?

Are they going to be happy

that we're taking on
cryptocurrencies about that?

And they might not allow me
to exchange it and bank it later.

And some banks, increasingly,

they're more comfortable with things;

alternatives, like gold and cryptocurrencies.

But you've got to ask your question,

what is my bank's attitude towards this?

And then you've got to 
choose who your vendors are.

Are you going to be working
with vendors like exchanges

or are you going to be working
with your own wallets.

There are challenges with both.

If you've got your own wallets,
how are you managing access

to those wallets and security around it?

How are you dealing with...

If you're working with an exchange, then,

I mean, we've all seen some of the problems,

in the last 48 hours, with FTX.

I mean, I think, it was Fortune Magazine.

I was just in the club, the other day,

and I saw a Fortune Magazine
and there's the founder of FTX,

on the cover, about he's
going to be the future,

and here we are with the
company near collapse.

And, so, who do you choose to work with,

if you're working with a vendor?

So there's plenty to think about.

But it's important that any 
business remains curious,

remains innovative, creative.

And you got to start thinking 
about this and doing this,

because you'll find the right solution

for your business if you take it seriously.

And that can be the difference
between success and failure.

I mean, with inflation running
in some countries that's anywhere

between 10 and 80%, at the moment.

This is the difference, and we live
in a world that's very competitive.

And, so, you've got to think out the box.

I think, those people who embrace technology,

generally speaking, get 
rewarded in the long term.  

– I agree with you, I think they will.

And, like you said, you'd have 
to know your local regulations

like in the U.S. the FASB
voted on October 12

that cryptocurrencies are 
no longer intangible assets,

their guidance has changed.

So you have to know that,

and you have to know how
to account for that.

And I know IFAC and all those 
other places are trying to consider

how you should view these
or account for these.

And, so, you have to know what your 
local regulatory body is doing.

– Yes, and, as you say, 
it's changing all the time.

So Hong Kong, for instance,

had a very strict attitude 
towards cryptocurrencies.

But then what happened is they
saw money flowing to Singapore,

which had taken a much more
relaxed view on cryptocurrencies.

And now the tables are turning,

Hong Kong has just announced
that it wants to be crypto-friendly.

Singapore is starting to tighten up
its regulations around that,

and even saying that they might
restrict it because of the volatility.

And in April, here in the UK,
the UK Government said that

we were going to announce rules

to say that stablecoins can be recognized

as a valid form of payment.

I'm not quite sure what that means.

They, obviously, want Britain to
become, now, a global hub

for crypto asset technology and investment.

But what does that really mean?

You're going to accept our 
taxes in cryptocurrency?

And, actually, that's something to mention,

being able to pay your employee-related taxes,

or your value-added taxes,
your product taxes.

I think early on, I sold a company to a business.

One of the very first electronic 
barter-based trade currencies,

and I was involved in that business
for a few months, after the exit.

And they had a very simple approach,

"Yes, I can get paid in 
this alternative currency."

But, at the end of the day,

the government still wants
to be paid in their currency.

So you just have to, again,
account for that.

– Yes, so as we think about the
future, look into our crystal ball.

Do you think we're heading toward

what the science fiction movies

always say, like "I'll pay you
20,000 credits, here you go."

Or are we not going that direction?

Do you think we'll get to that point,

where everything will be virtual

or do you think we'll still 
have some hard currency

that we'll be working with?

– Well, I think, the term 
is we always overestimate

what can happen in the next five years

and underestimate what 
could happen in the next 20.

And, I mean, I was involved
in virtual reality,

the first time it was called
back in the '90s.

And I see what's going on
with Meta and Facebook

and there's no way the virtual reality

is going to deliver the kind of returns,

and the kind of innovation that is needed.

That is reflected with the enthusiasm

that people like Facebook
have for it and stuff.

We're just a million miles away
from where we need to be.  

And, so, it's the same with cryptocurrencies.

For instance, they need to mature,

they need to get more mass adoption

before their volatility will
start to come down.

They can be considered
valuable stores of value.

They're already a good medium of exchange-ish.

Transactions are still very high and costly,

in most of these cryptocurrencies.

So there's still a lot of immaturity there,

and I love the enthusiasm for it.

And I do think I'm singing 
from the same hymn sheet,

in terms of gold, for instance.

But, I think, long-term there 
will be lots of progress made

and some progress that, maybe,

some of the listeners are 
even thinking about right now.

I mean, what's the effect of 
quantum computing on finance?

And you might say, "Well, what's 
that got to do with finance?"

Well, it's got a lot to do with security.

The idea that you could have two elements

quantumly entangled with each other,

and then separated by great distances.

I mean, I don't profess to know,

I know a tiny amount is very dangerous.

But the idea that you could have

new security systems based
on quantum computing,

might mean, for instance, 
that you can actually tell

whether or not this is a real 
user accessing the system,

when the system is on earth 
and the person is on Mars.

So, actually, there's no reason why,

for instance, currencies could be intergalactic.

And whether that is a fiat system.

Whether it is a cryptocurrency system.

Whether it is a gold-based system.

I don't think matters, I 
think that the future leads.

There is a huge amount of innovation

and excitement, for me, as we move forward.

I would say, though, fiat currencies

all come to an end, they all.

There is not one fiat currency 
that stood the test of time ever.

And we can see that they are becoming,

right in front of our eyes, worthless.

And, so, I think, that there will be an end

to the U.S. dollar, the pound, and the euro.

But when it will be?

They'll probably last a lot longer 
than we think they ever will.  

Gold will still be here and, 
still, I think, a store of value.

And with the technologies behind it,

it's a tantalizing opportunity

to be a fantastic global interstellar currency,

based on the kind of technology
we could bring forward.

But I do think that blockchain and
distributed ledger's, in general,

can offer a huge amount of increased
transparency and trustworthiness,

in the long run, to make accountants

and finance teams lives much easier.

– I agree, and, Jason, I just 
want to thank you, again,

for coming on the podcast.

It's been great having this conversation.

I know we could keep
talking for a long time,

but thanks for sharing
your expertise with us, today.

– Adam, it's been a pleasure, thank you.

< Music >

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