< Intro >

– Welcome back to Count Me In.

In today's episode, we're thrilled
to have Sarah Rubenstein,

Chief Accounting Officer
at Clearway Energy.

With us to discuss the crucial role

that employee engagement plays
in an organization's success.

Sarah brings her extensive experience

in cultivating positive work
environments to the table.

Offering valuable advice on
identifying disengaged employees,

implementing effective strategies
to boost engagement,

and the benefits of fostering an
inclusive, collaborative workspace.

Stay tuned as we uncover
the keys to unlocking a happy,

productive, and thriving
work environment.

< Music >

– Well, Sarah, thank you so much

for coming on the Count Me
In podcast, today.

We're really excited to have you on,

and today we're going to be talking
about employee engagement

and all that, that encompasses.

And maybe to start off, maybe,
you can start by defining

what is employee engagement to you.

– Sure, to me, employee engagement

is how positive people
feel about their work,

and we measure that in
a lot of different ways.

But, really, I'm lucky, the
company that I work at,

we survey our employees every year,

regarding employee engagement.

And we ask some really good questions

that were developed by very smart people

at Harvard, and Yale, and Stanford,

that tell us how engaged people are.

And, so, we're able to evaluate, and
a lot of the questions relate to things

like management, leadership,
integrity, work-life balance,

workload, allocation, autonomy,
and things like that.

And all of those factors really tell us
how engaged our employees are.

– That's interesting, and when
you mention engaged,

a lot of times when you see discussions

about employee engagement.

You see engaged employees
versus disengaged employees.

And, so, maybe we can start
by talking about that a little bit.

Because you have your
engaged employees,

and you can usually tell who those are.

But the disengaged maybe
a little harder to see,

or maybe not so hard, depending on

what they're not doing, I should say.

– Yes, sure, and the first
indication we have,

that some employees are not engaged,

is that they don't answer the surveys.

So we don't get 100% participation.

So that tells us that some people
feel like maybe their voice

won't be heard, even if they answer.

And those people, usually,
just have a negative outlook,

maybe, on what type of work

they're doing or their future
within the company.

And, so, a lot of times,
you lose the engagement

when people feel like there's no
career development path for them,

or the work that they're
doing isn't valuable,

or they're not being told that the
work that they're doing is valuable.

– And that can be very
difficult for an employee,

especially, when you don't feel like

you can't move up in an organization.

How do you take somebody
who is disengaged

and try to get them to be engaged?

– That's a great question, and, especially,

when you don't have a development path

for a person, it is really challenging.

And, so, what we try to do is we
try to provide a lot of personal

and professional development opportunities.

And we talk to our employees

about how those types of opportunities

can help them develop themselves.

Whether for this particular
company and role

or just in general for their career.

So we try to offer them
opportunities to learn

and also to, maybe, work in an area

that isn't related to their job.

So we try to look for things
we call stretch assignments.

Where there might be an
opportunity in another group,

where someone needs help
with a special project,

and that might give that
individual the opportunity

to learn new skills that they
can put on their resume,

even if it doesn't give them
direct path to promotion.

So we try to demonstrate what
we can offer the employee,

even if it isn't upward mobility, and
that maybe we can't keep them forever,

but we can keep them a little bit longer,

and that helps us overall.

– Yes, because it shows that you care

and that you're engaging with them,

even though they seem to be disengaged.

And, so, it encourages them,

even if there is no upper
mobility at that moment.

– Right, because everyone is looking

for some type of personal development,

even if they don't see a future
for themselves at that company.

So we try to offer something for everyone.

If you don't see yourself as a leader

at this company, that's okay,
we'll work with you

on how you can make yourself

a better employee and a better person.

So that, at least, we can keep you around,

and have you feel happy to be working

at the company for the time being.

– Mh-hmm, that makes a lot of sense.

So maybe we can focus a little bit

on what are some benefits,
to organizations,

to creating an engaging environment?

– I haven't read all of the studies,

but there are numerous studies

that show that engaged employees

are better employees,
they're more productive.

Of course, we know that
hiring new employees,

and training them, and
getting them up to speed

is very expensive and time-consuming.

And, so, it benefits us to take
the time to develop programs

to promote employee engagement.

Because, overall, we end up
with better productivity

and just a better workforce.

– I mean, that makes a lot of sense

to want to have a better workforce,

especially, when they're engaged.

And, so, maybe, we can
talk a little bit about

what do you need to look for, especially,

when your team is not engaged.

Are there certain signs
that you can look for?

Obviously, you mentioned
you can tell people

are not engaged when
they're not taking a survey.

But then what are other signs that
you can look for, within your team,

if you can talk a little bit about that?

– Yes, no problem, there's a couple
of different signs that I look for.

Generally, I look for people

who aren't participating
in the conversations,

who don't speak up in meetings.

People who have been
doing the same work

for an extended period of time.

And, of course, you look
for the signs of people

who are not responsive.

They're taking a long time to reply
to emails or teams' messages.

Those are all signs we look for,
for people who aren't engaged.

And then we really try to find ways

to bring them into the conversation.

To make them feel like we're
committed to their success,

and that we're interested in having
them as part of the conversation.

– Do you think that
having engaged people

with the not-so-engaged people,
connecting them together,

that can help drive or improve a team?

– I definitely do.

Maybe one other thing
I'll say about employees

who aren't engaged is they tend to leave.

So, really, our primary focus
on employee engagement

started when, and I won't say it started,

we've always had a focus on it.

But we renewed that focus when
the great resignation occurred.

We were hearing about that.

It didn't really happen at my company.

But we were very concerned that
once everyone was out of sight,

out of mind, working remote from home,

people might start to feel disengaged

when they're working on their own,

without interacting with others.

They might start to look
at other jobs online

while they're at home and things like that.

So we really wanted to focus on
making sure that didn't happen.

So we started some programs
that were designed, specifically,

to promote employee engagement.

And one of those was
a mentoring program

within the accounting department.

So we matched up individuals

who were at lower levels with
our managers and directors,

so that the managers and directors

could give the staff-level folks an idea

of how they could get to that level.

And also they could
just give them the ability

to communicate with someone
they didn't work with all the time.

So that they would feel more engaged

in the overall department,
and not just able to speak

with their direct supervisor
and their specific team.

– That's great, mentorship is a huge way

of connecting different departments,

different people, within an organization.

And it also helps people feel
like they're part of a community.

Because a lot of times corporate
structures feel like a prison,

in a lot of ways, with the
fluorescent lights and everything.

And it sounds like you guys are
building a sense of community.

Has that been what you're looking to do?

– Yes, definitely, I would
say there were two

very large parts of our
program were communication.

So making sure that we had
adequate amounts of communication

across the department,
and within the specific teams,

and then collaboration, in general.

So having a team's channel
for our whole department,

where people could even
just share a photo of their pet

or something funny that
they wanted to share.

So that people do feel like they're
part of a broader community

and not just a small, little, group.

And, then, I'll say that I'm very fortunate,

I work for a company that is committed

to diversity, equity, and inclusion.

And, so, two years ago
we started inclusion groups,

and those have been a really big
help in employee engagement

and in helping people feel like
they're part of a community.

So I will say for companies that
don't have inclusion groups, yet,

I think, it really is a big
benefit to employees.

– Can you, maybe, talk a little bit
more about the inclusion groups?

What does that look like?

– Sure, so, typically, they're
focused around a specific group.

So we have a women's inclusion group.

A veterans' inclusion group.

We have a Latinx inclusion
group, and things like that.

But it's to give employees,
across the company,

the ability to connect with people

that they relate to and then also the ability

to share with the whole organization,

the things that are important
to that inclusion group.

And, so, it's really been great, both,

for bringing employees together
with people that they relate to.

And, then, also, making
them able to share that

with the whole company

and educate them on the issues
that are important to them.

So it has been really great in bringing

our whole community together.

– That's awesome, that's a great
way of connecting people

and also helping to educate
the greater community, as well.

Because a lot of times, if you only
are focused on what you know,

you never get to experience or understand

what other people's experiences are,

which helps you understand
the human condition better.

–Right, and the other thing that's
nice about the inclusion groups

is that they have executive sponsorship.

So the issues that are important
to the inclusion groups

are brought to the attention
of the executive leadership.

So they're then aware of what's
important to their employees

and it gives them a forum to do that.

But without the inclusion groups,

the executives might hear about it

but it wouldn't, necessarily,
be in a positive way

and it doesn't give them
as much exposure to it.

– Mh-hmm, and it also gives
people a voice

who may not have had a voice before.

– Yes, and that also because
it's open to anyone.

It's nice that some of the people

who are at lower levels,
in the organization,

can still become very active
in these inclusion groups.

And have access to people
at different levels

that they might not have access to

if they didn't join that inclusion group.

– Mh-hmm, that's awesome.

So we're thinking about engagement,

I want to talk a little bit
about what are some drivers

that bring employees to become engaged

or to engagement, within an organization.

And maybe you can talk
about some drivers

that have helped your organization,

as you've seen it, especially,
over the last two years?

– Yes, the main one that I see
is employee development

because it demonstrates that
you care about your employees

and their own career.

And, so, that you're not just worried
about the company or yourself.

You care about that person and
how they can grow themselves.

So we've focused a lot
on personal development.

Fortunately, we have some really good

training tools, online training tools.

So we have a lot of programs that
our employees have access to,

and what we've tried to do is go through

and identify some that
would be useful to people.

So they don't have to go combing

through a thousand training programs.

So leadership training and teaching
them how to manage people

and how to improve their
interpersonal communications.

And then technical training to help
them develop their technical skills,

so that they can perform their job better

or be able to potentially
move into a different role.

We have a really good opportunity

for our employees to receive coaching,

which a lot of our managers
have taken advantage of.

Which is really great because
it gives them a chance

to work with a trained coach,

to improve the skills
that need improvement.

So that they can work to become
future leaders of the company.

And, then, I mentioned before
the stretch assignments.

But all of those things
have been really helpful,

showing our commitment to the
development of our employees.

And, then, the other area,
I'd say, especially,

during the last couple of years

people have really looked for is
just empathy and understanding.

We're very aware that everyone has things

that they need to do outside of work.

We're very respectful of people's
time with their families.

We're flexible in work arrangements

and we try to be aware of what's
happening in people's lives.

So that we can make sure that

we're not putting too much work on them.

If they have something they're
dealing with outside of work

that they need to focus on.

And I will say we've gotten
really positive feedback,

when we do take the time

to show that we care about
our employees as individuals,

it makes them feel very
positive towards the company.

So things like that really pay off.

And, then, the third area
would be recognition.

So I think that recognizing
the positive contributions

of your employees has a huge benefit.

And some studies show
even more than compensation,

I don't know if that's true or not.

But it really does help to ensure that

people know how much
you appreciate them.

And, so, one thing we've started to do is

we have a quarterly meeting
for our entire department.

And every quarter I ask
people to nominate people

that they work with, that they think

have done something that was,
particularly, special or helpful.

And, so, then we acknowledge that

in front of the whole group,
and that really goes a long way

towards making people
feel really appreciated

and that the work that they do
doesn't go unnoticed.

– That's amazing to hear,
and in the conversations

that I've been having,
even just in this podcast.

It seems like the common theme

is that we've all understood
our human condition

outside of the corporate structure.

And recognize that it's okay
to have a kid run into the room

when you're in the middle of a meeting,

or a dog barking, because that's just life.

And you can still have your meeting

and still be professional in
the midst of all those things,

and it kind of brought us
all together at the same level.

– Yes, I agree.

And it is true, you do
observe those things happen

to executive vice presidents,
down to staff-level people.

Especially when we were all home,

we're all dealing with the same
type of things going on,

and it does help everyone feel
like we can relate to one another.

– Yes, and, so, as we look
forward into the future,

a lot of people have moved
to a hybrid situation,

or all in the office,
or partially in the office,

every organization is different.

How do you think we can
continue engaging employees

in the midst of rising costs?

In the midst of shareholders

saying, "Hey, okay, you had
your little break from the COVID

now you need to get back going there."

And a lot of organizations

are finding it difficult to find that balance.

Because workloads are
starting to increase,

as people are increasing what
they want out of their employees.

How do you balance that?

– That's a great question
and it is really difficult.

I'll tell you my experience because
we have our own struggle

with bringing people back to the
office, and we're recommitting

to a hybrid work schedule
because we had attempted one,

and people still really wanted
to work, primarily, from home.

And it's hard because people

do want the flexibility
of working from home.

And we know that they're
very productive at home.

I think that we've tried to
emphasize to our employees

that "We know you're
productive from home.

We're not worried about productivity.

But we want people to have
that human connection.

Because it is an important
part of engagement

to talk to people in person,
and just have a conversation

that's not related, primarily, to work.

And, so, we're going
to renew our enthusiasm

for encouraging people to come
to the office two days a week.

We are emphasizing that
we're going to be very flexible

with the time that people arrive
and the time they have to leave.

We understand they have
commitments outside of work.

And, then, it still gives
them a few days a week

to work from home, and have those

really productive stretches
of uninterrupted work.

Where they're not having
to drive to the office

or someone is not
stopping in to say hello.

And, hopefully, this gives
everybody the best of both worlds.

Where they can have those two days

with the in-person interaction,

maybe some visibility to
higher level executives

that they can't get from home.

But then still have that
uninterrupted time at home,

the productive time, and that
flexibility to not have to commute.

And then the other thing
that we're trying to do,

we did this year, was we did have

and, although, it's expensive,

but we got our whole team
together in one location,

for a couple of days to
just do some training,

and some brainstorming, and
some planning for the future.

And it was such a great experience

and everyone really loved
being together in person,

and being able to brainstorm together.

And then everyone left feeling renewed

about the future and excited.

And, so, I think, that goes a long way

towards keeping everybody engaged,

is having that opportunity
to all come together.

– Yes, there's something about
the human connection

and seeing somebody, as
opposed to as you and I are,

we're looking at each other
through little webcams.

But sitting across the
table from somebody,

there's a huge difference
in that connection point.

And I think we do need that,

as humans, we need that human touch.

And, especially, getting out of the house

every once in a while
is good for everybody.

– Yes, I think so, I enjoy the
two days a week in the office,

and then I enjoy the rest of
the week working from home.

So I'm hopeful that the
hybrid approach works.

– I am too, I think this is
the new normal, is hybrid,

because everybody recognized,
"Hey, we can be successful

working from home and be just as
productive, if not more productive."

And then finding that balance
will be the way forward.

Because if you can't
adjust your organization

to be a hybrid, then, you might
find more resignation.

Because people are like,

"I'll go to someplace where
they will let me do that."

– Yes, and that's a fear that
a lot of companies have

and, especially, in accounting
because there are a lot of jobs.

If people want to work fully
remote, then, they will.

So we're trying to emphasize
what are the benefits

you get from being around people.

We understand there are
benefits to being home,

and that's very appealing.

So we're trying to show the appeal

of the two days in-person,

and the opportunity
to interact with people

and benefit from those in-person
connections and interactions.

< Outro >

– This has been Count
Me In, IMA's podcast.

Providing you with the latest
perspectives of thought leaders

from the accounting finance profession.

If you like what you heard,
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for more relevant accounting
and finance education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.