< Intro >

– Welcome back to Count Me In.

Where we explore the world of accounting

and finance with industry experts.

Today we're thrilled to have
Megan Weiss join us.

With a rich background
in accounting and consulting,

Megan currently leads the Finance

and Accounting Division at Personiv.

She's here to share her insights
into the talent shortage,

in the accounting industry.

The pros and cons of outsourcing,

and how recent events like
the Great Resignation

and quiet quitting have
shaped the profession.

Let's dive in and learn

from Megan's wealth of
expertise and knowledge.

< Music >

So, Megan, I want to thank you so much

for coming on the Count Me
In podcast, today.

And I wanted to start off, a little bit,

by if you could just give us an overview

of your background and how you
got to where you are today.

– Yes, sure, and thanks for having me.

So I graduated with an
undergraduate degree in accounting

from Kent State University.

I managed to pass the CPA in
my final semester of school there.

So right after school, I went
to work for Deloitte & Touche,

one of the Big Four accounting firms,

and I was with their audit practice.

I stayed and served my time
for about three and a half years.

When I left there, I went to work
for Pricewaterhouse Coopers

in their transaction
advisory services group.

Where we were looking
at helping organizations

who were getting ready
to purchase a business

or sell a business, just to
determine if it was a good fit.

If they were paying a good
price for the business.

From there I went to work for British
Petroleum as a financial analyst.

I left there after a couple of
years to work for Accenture

and that was back in 2003,

and that was when I was introduced
to the idea of outsourcing,

it was pretty new back then.

Not a lot of companies were doing it

and the ones that did do it
were very large enterprises.

So I stayed there for 13 years,

and while I was with them
I went back to school.

I got my MBA from Duke University.

I left Accenture to then work

at a small boutique consulting
firm here in Dallas, Texas.

It's called Everest Group,
and it is a consulting group

that focuses on outsourcing
service providers and companies

with shared service providers.

And, so, my role there was to
focus on finance and accounting

and I was really looking
at the service providers,

and their visions for the future,
and where the finance

and accounting outsourcing
industry was headed.

And, then, while I was there,

I did a project for the company
I am at now, it's called Personiv.

And the project I did for them

was to take a look at lines of service

that they should consider getting into.

So, although, they'd been
around since the mid-'80s,

finance and accounting was
never really on their radar

as something that they
should maybe venture into.

So during the course of that project,

finance and accounting was
one of the things that

we suggested that they branch into.

And, so, when they decided
to go down that road

they reached out to me,
brought me on to start it up.

So I've been here now for five years,

it's been a really exciting journey.

It's like being in a startup organization,

but with the backing of a company

that's been around for 35 years.

So that's how I got to where I am today.

I feel like it's a good culmination

of everything I've done to date.

– Yes, that sounds great.

You've had quite the story going
of a bunch of different places,

but it shapes who you are

and how you see everything
in the accounting world.

And one thing that you and
I had talked about is that

there is a talent shortage in the
accounting and finance world,

when it comes to having to outsource,

it's because you have a talent shortage,

and it's been around for over 15 years.

Reading articles of people

saying, "Oh, it just showed up
during the pandemic."

But as we talked about
your experience, previously,

you're saying, "Well, no, it's
been around for a long time."

– Yes, I mean, I would say it's been around

for, at least, the last two decades.

When you've read top challenges
for CFOs, over the last two decades,

talent has always been
one or two, on that list.

And, I think, it really started
way back in the early 2000s,

when they decided that they would make

accounting a five-year program.

In order to sit for the CPA,
you needed a master's degree,

and that's, maybe, when people

stopped going into the
study of accounting.

And, really, it's been around
and becoming more and more

of a problem, every year since.

And back in 2015, the AICPA,
which stands for,

actually, American Institute
of Certified Public Accountants,

and they were predicting that by 2020,

75% of their members would be retired.

And I know not every accountant is a CPA,

but that's a good indicator of
where the profession is headed.

And, then, you add, on top of that,
millennials and Gen Z's,

who are looking for
more meaningful work.

And accounting, historically, has
not necessarily been seen

as an area that is conducive
to meaningful work.

So, yes, it's, definitely, been exasperated

in the last three years since COVID hit,

but it's been a problem
for a long time coming.

– So if you're in an organization

and you recognize that,
"Hey, I need more talent

in my accounting team."

What are some benefits that they can see

when they think about outsourcing

their accounting and finance team?

– Yes, well, in the years past,

outsourcing was really
about just cutting cost,

and it was all about the cost, savings.

But, today, it's really about
opening up a new pool of talent.

A pool of talent that's equally qualified

as the talent you would find, if you
could, here in the United States.

So, yes, it really is just a wonderful way

to find very talented accountants.

And on top of that, if a client chooses,

I mean, you can have 24-hours coverage.

You can have people that work
here in the United States.

You can have a team that
works over their days,

which is on the other side of the world.

So you're basically getting
24-hours coverage.

But a lot of times, consultants
or outsourcing providers,

have people that are willing
to work nights.

Because that's not uncommon,
in India or the Philippines,

where a lot of this outsourcing is done,

for people to work overnight
in support of U.S. companies.

And, as I mentioned, it opens
up an entirely new pool

that maybe you can't
access here in the U.S.

But, also, a lot of organizations

think that unless they
have a team of 10 to 20

or even more resources to outsource,

that it's not an option for them.

And I know we, personally, at Personiv

will take on as little as one resource.

So if there's a role that
you've been trying to fill

or maybe you're just tired
of the turnover in that role.

Yes, there are outsourcing
service providers out there

that will take on small
teams of one or two,

and just free that up from your plate

and let CFOs, controllers,
accounting managers,

focus on things other than turnover
and training up new people.

– Well, that makes sense,
and I can imagine that

not everything is all sunny-side and roses

when you're trying to outsource.

I'm sure there are some downsides

that you have to be aware
of as you're getting into this.

– Yes, that is definitely true.

And, like I mentioned,
a lot of times, in the past,

and maybe it's changing a little bit today.

But a lot of times in the past,

people were looking at outsourcing
as a way to cut cost.

And, I think, no matter who
your service provider is,

you're going to have cost savings.

But if you're just looking for the
cheapest service provider,

you're probably going to end
up not loving outsourcing.

Just because you'll end up
with a team of people

who are very good at following
a set of instructions.

But you're going to do more handholding

than actually being able to get
your work off your own plate.

So one of the downsides to
outsourcing is just looking at cost,

if that's the only thing that
you're concerned about.

And, also, there's a lot of outsourcing
service providers out there

that will try to force you
into a box, I'll say.

Where you're required to
be on their platform.

You're required to follow their process,

and at the end of the day,
you get the numbers

but then you're spending a lot of time

incorporating those numbers back
into your results for month end.

Which ends up adding a lot
of work on the back end,

when you're really under a lot of pressure

to get stuff done and numbers out.

So those are really two
of the biggest downsides

to outsourcing, it's just ending up
with a very cheap team,

who provides very cheap service

and, then, just being forced into a box

and having to do things a certain way

that might not fit the way
you do things today.

– That makes sense, so in essence,
you need to make sure you're doing

your homework if you're going
to be looking into this.

To make sure you find the right
organizations that will fit your needs.

– Yes, that's very true.

You should be looking at a partner,
it should be an organization

or a service provider that's
willing to partner with you,

customize the solution to fit your needs.

Our clients have very good
experiences with outsourcing.

And, so, we're very careful to provide them

with a service that is very customized

to what it is that they need.

– So you've made it very clear,
through your experience,

that the talent shortage has
been around for 20 years.

But the last three years
have definitely not helped.

We've got the Great Resignation,

we've got quiet quitting going on.

How do you think the last three years

have really affected that talent shortage?

And, also, when we think
about accounting education

and people going into accounting,

they're not going to the traditional roles.

– Yes, that's very true.

So just looking at the Great
Resignation, as an example,

I mean, you have a group of people

who are known to be very
conservative with their money,

and they've probably
maxed out their 401(K)s.

They're in a position where if retiring early

is an option, they're going to take it.

So a lot of people that were
expected to be around

for maybe another five to ten years,

COVID hit and they reprioritized,
and they decided to leave

the workforce earlier than expected.

And baby boomers leaving
has been a big issue

on the horizon for a decade or more now.

So that's how the Great Resignation

has affected the talent pool.

And then you have quiet quitting.

You have people who
they're coming to work,

but they're putting in
the bare minimum effort,

and the rest of the team
is having to pick up slack,

and the rest of the team is,
probably, already burnt out.

Accounting is known for grueling
hours, at times, throughout the year,

particularly, month end and year end.

And if you have someone who's slacking,

the rest of your team is
forced to pick up that slack.

And then when you look at people

that are just entering college

and they're trying to figure out what
they want to do with their lives.

Like I said, a lot of younger people

are looking for more meaningful
work, maybe, sexier work.

There's a lot of technology
companies out there, these days,

that are luring really great talent away.

And they have more options
when they get out of school,

even if they did study accounting.

I mean, there's consulting

and there's just a lot of other
avenues that they can take.

And I also feel like the skill
sets that accountants need

have changed, dramatically,
over the last 20 years as well.

Whereas people who were
just good with numbers

could study accounting
and be successful.

Now, it's really the soft skills
that stand out

and make a candidate great.

So, yes, you have all of those
things working together

to really put a noose
around hiring accountants,

and it's been a painful few years, for sure.

– It definitely has, and I know
everybody is feeling it.

And, I think, the other thing
that we have to remember, too,

is that the accounting role is
changing, like you mentioned,

that you have to have
different sets of skills.

You can't just be the number cruncher.

You have to be the business partner,

you have to be the data analyst.

You have to do a number of different roles

that people weren't expecting to.

And the older generation has to adapt,

and the newer generation
has to jump on this new wheel

and, so, everybody has to change.

And, so, how have you seen
organizations doing that?

– Yes, well, in general,
accounting hasn't done

a very good job of marketing itself.

Which is why, I think, a lot of
younger people steer away from it.

Because it's still viewed as the nerd

that sits in their office,
crunching numbers.

And, really, accounting can take you

a lot of different places, and
my career is a good example.

I mean, I've done so many different things,

and I've really enjoyed
most of what I've done.

And I just don't think that accounting

has done a really good job of marketing

that to younger generations.

But, yes, I mean, these days, accountants

are more storytellers than anything else.

They have to know the business.

They have to be able to understand data

and create insights out of data,

and, yes, it's challenging, it's rewarding.

And organizations could not function

without an accounting department,

which is, again, part of the talent problem.

But I actually read an article
in The Washington Post,

earlier this week, that said
and this might be a bit extreme,

but that "Capitalism, it might fall

because of this accounting
talent shortage."

And if you think about it,

the only reason why
capitalistic markets survive

is because people trust
the financial statements,

that are behind the
investments they're making.

And without accountants
making sure that those numbers

are accurate and fairly
depicted, you have chaos.

And we've seen it as recently as the
collapse of Enron, a few years ago

and, then, Arthur Andersen, right behind it.

So, yes, talent is a big deal,
and filling accounting roles

is very important for
companies and countries.

– Yes, it is.

Now, I know Personiv did a survey,

talking about the war
for talent after COVID-19,

the results of the CFO Talent Survey.

Maybe you could tell us a little bit about

what your organization saw
in surveying CFOs.

– Yes so we just did a survey
in 2022, this year.

And the last time we had done
the survey was in 2020,

and in 2020, we saw that
it was a problem.

But in 2022, everything
seemed to be magnified,

and here are five of the
takeaways from the report.

But 34% of CFOs say that their
most pressing challenge

is finding and hiring
qualified accounting talent.

So that's more than a third,
who would put that

at the very top of their list,
it's just finding good talent.

81% of finance leaders say
that they have felt

the accounting talent shortage in 2022,

and of those, more than 10% think
it's just going to get worse in 2023.

We saw that 85% of finance
leaders say that COVID-19

has affected their hiring process
and talent-sourcing abilities.

72% said that it had an
impact on retention,

and, I think, companies that
are right now struggling

between, "Do we bring people
back into the office?

Do we let them stay remote?"

I feel like the retention problem

for them is even more magnified.

And then we saw that 47%
of CFOs said that they need to hire

at least one qualified accountant
within the year, and that number

for us was up by 20% from when
we looked at it just two years ago.

And, then, 88% of finance leaders

say they wish that they had more time

to spend on strategic initiatives.

Meaning because they have
a shortage of talent,

they're mired down in the details

rather than leading their
organizations into the future.

– I mean, that's very telling, is that
they can't even look, strategically,

and help be that business partner

because they don't even
have the time to do that.

– Yes.
– That says a lot

about what's happening.

– Yes, they're busy spending
their days putting out fires

and just trying to get numbers out

the door in a timely fashion,

let alone looking, strategically,
into the future.

It's just not possible for a lot of organizations right now.

– Yes, so we'll make sure to put a link

to the report in our show notes, today.

But as you think about this report

and what you've seen in the 2022 report.

And let's say you guys do, and I'm
assuming you do every two years.

2024, do you think that
it's going to be any better

or where do you think that things

are going to go as we look forward?

– Yes, no, I mean, I think, this is going
to continue to be a problem.

I think we're going to continue to see

demand go up for accountants.

It's something that's gone up every year.

Even as we automate processes,

there's more of a need for people

who can analyze data,
and supply is dwindling.

So the demand is growing,
supply is dwindling,

and this problem is only going to
exasperate in the coming years.

So I'm interested to see where
we are in two to five years.

– I am as well, and, maybe,
we'll have you back on in two years

and we can have that discussion,
Megan, how does that sound?

– Yes, that sounds great,
I'd look forward to that.

– All right, well, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast today.

It was great to have you on.

– Yes, thank you very much
for having me, it's been fun.

< Outro >

– This has been Count
Me In, IMA's podcast.

Providing you with the latest
perspectives of thought leaders

from the accounting
and finance profession.

If you like what you heard
and you'd like to be counted in

for more relevant account
and finance education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.