< Intro >

- Welcome to Count Me In,

the podcast for accounting

and finance pros working in business.

I'm Adam Larson, and today we examine

leadership from a different angle,

with Douglas Clayton, affectionately
known as the FilmDoc.

Neha Ratnakar, caught up with him

to discuss his journey from making
crowd-pleasing HR videos

for a satellite company,
to researching leadership

at Wharton for his PhD.

To advising C-suite executives
through the lens of filmmaking.

There's links to the trailers

for the award-winning
documentaries in the show notes.

So be sure to check them out
if you're interested.

Now sit back and enjoy

this great conversation
with Douglas Clayton.

< Music >

- I was going through your profile
and it fascinated me,

among many other things, by the way,

that you had a very long

and interesting career in SES satellites.

Tell us how was it working
with actual rocket scientists

and what lessons did your time
in SES teach you?

- That's a great question.

There are a couple of really fun elements

of working with rocket scientists.

One of them is when I go
to family dinners, or parties,

or functions, and people
say, "What do you do?"

I get to say that I work
with rocket scientists,

and that's an instant attention grabber.

But certainly much more
substantial than that

is just working with folks
who are so smart.

And most of the engineers and scientists

who I've had the pleasure of working
with are modest folks.

They don't have big egos,
they work really hard,

they love to figure out problems.

They actually love to have problems

so they can have something to figure out.

So I've always enjoyed it,

always considered it a great privilege
to work with people

who are so smart and, in many ways,
so very kind as well.

In terms of, "What was it like
to work at SES?"

It was a lovely experience,

life-changing experience,
I'll say, actually.

The way I ended up working at SES is

I worked for GE Capital for many years.

Then I ended up transferring
to their satellite business,

which was headquartered
in Princeton, New Jersey.

And three months later,

we were sold to a tiny
company called SES,

in the tiny country of Luxembourg.

Now, you can maybe imagine

going from working
for this giant company

being acquired by a small company.

We all had choices to stay,

or to maybe move on with
our careers, or to stay with SES.

And the best decision that
I made, career decision,

was to stay with SES,
and the reason is because,

at that point, I was an HR manager,

or also known as a generalist.

And what we discovered
is that as an HR person,

and then eventually as a leader,

our decisions really mattered

when you worked for a small company.

Where when we worked for GE

we were often in execution mode.

So then to move from a big company

where the big decisions were
being made in Connecticut.

To a small company where
they were relying on us

in Princeton to help guide

the corporate office in Luxembourg,

which, again, it was
a very small company.

It really mattered and it helped
to develop our confidence.

And then as I evolved
in terms of leadership

and the company moving up
in the organization,

that happened more rapidly

because of the size of the company

than it would have happened with GE.

Working for a company that's
headquartered in Europe

was a real game changer, as well.

Because I needed to put on
a different hat

and look at work and look at the world
through a different lens,

not just an American lens, which was fine.

But, now, I really needed to understand,

"Hey, how do we do leadership?

How do our accountants
and finance people,

how do they need to work together

from Europe, between Europe
and the U.S.?

How do our rocket scientists
work together.

How do we merge these two cultures,

very different country cultures,
and company cultures?"

So it was quite a learning
experience, for me,

something that I could have
never gained at GE,

and in the position that I was in,

and it's something that
I would've never gained

just through university.

- That's so fascinating,

and I'm glad you made
the switch and stayed on.

All right, I loved what you said
about having problems to solve,

actually loving the fact that
you have problems to solve.

Now, tell me when Covid-19 hit,

it must have been very difficult for SES.

Because satellite making
or maintaining them

is not something that
you can take back home

with your laptop and do it
from your dining table.

So how did the leaders,
and the people teams,

in SES make this new reality work?

- I think it was extraordinary,
what happened.

I had a front-row seat because
I was part of a task force,

the Covid task force,
and we would meet weekly,

and I was on that team for
several months and until I retired.

But watching the team, which was led

by our human resources leader,
Evie Roos, at the time.

It was extraordinary, the decisions
that they were making

and the stakes were so high.

Part of our satellite
business is, certainly,

working with space engineers,

and satellite engineers,
and rocket scientists.

But we also have, just as important,

dynamite teams of people
who actually operate.

And I'll say quote-unquote,
"Fly our satellites."

They work 24/7.

And, so, what were we
going to do with them?

So certainly we allowed,
I'll say 95% of the organization

to work from home, or the vast majority,

and that was a whole another
challenge and project.

But then we have this
other group of people

where we can't allow them
to work from home.

We really needed them
to come into the office.

To sit at the monitors
and to take care of that part

of our very important, essential,
part of our business.

And, so, it was really around listening,

and listening to what people recommended.

Listening to the experts in the field.

Listening to the supervisors
and the employees,

and just making decisions based
on what was best for them.

So, for instance, the folks
who were our satellite operators,

who had to come into the office every day,

we had meals delivered to them.

It was an extremely sterile environment.

If there was anyone who was near
someone who had Covid,

then, that person needed to quarantine.

It was very strict because
you can imagine potential disaster

of having a team of people,

who can no longer come into the office

to fly satellites because Covid
has spread through there.

It was executed exceptionally,

so that was just one area of our business.

And, then, of course, there's
the challenge of allowing

the vast majority of our employees
to work from home.

And, so, how do you do that?

What's needed?

What's required in terms of laptops,

and equipment, and chairs,

and everything else that
goes along with that.

And, then, as a lot of
companies discovered,

we also discovered that
it was working quite well.

Our platform for communications
is Microsoft Teams,

and people discovered that
they were working,

in many cases, actually harder than
when they were coming into the office

because they were getting up early

and they were just burning through
the day, nonstop, into the evening

And, so, in terms of burnout,

people feeling stressed, we had to be
really careful about that.

That people weren't working
so incredibly hard

that there would be mistakes,

and that there would be illnesses
and things along those lines.

At the end of the day,
the employees appreciated

the great work done by this
cross-functional task force.

Which was led by our
human resources leader

and, certainly our CEO, Steve Collar,
talked about it many times,

how incredibly impressed
he was with our leadership.

But more so with our employees
for stepping up

and for keeping the business
moving forward.

- Wow, thanks for sharing that with me.

And that definitely has a potential

to be a case study and maybe,
possibly, a film one day.

And talking about films
I have to ask you this,

about the documentary that you made,

"The Heart of Camden."

What inspired you
to make a documentary,

while working as an HR professional

at such a huge company?

- Well, it began with my first documentary,

which is called, "Dovere of Camden."

And Dovere is an Italian word
for duty or responsibility,

and that was a 26-minute documentary

that I made, well, for kicks,
I just wanted to see if I could.

What's the process, understand
the process to make a film,

to make a documentary, I should say.

I'd made a few films before that
for the corporate world,

but which were parodies
of mainstream films,

and it was more for edutainment, I'll say.

Educating people with
an entertaining way.

But then I wanted to
make a film, a documentary,

and there was this particular topic

of an abandoned bar
in one of the country's

most impoverished cities,
Camden, New Jersey.

And there were two fellas
who were involved with others,

who raised this bar
basically from the ashes

and turned it into this city's
only live theater, great.

And we were accepted into film festivals,

we won a few awards.

Which was quite a shock to me

because when you make a film,

what happens is you get so close to it

that you tend to lose perspective
if it's any good or not.

But this apparently
was appreciated by people.

And the feedback we got from folks
was that it was quite inspiring.

People said, "It makes me think,
'How can I make a difference

in my neighborhood?

If these two guys did this
in Camden, New Jersey?'"

So that really made me think,

"Okay, maybe, I'll make
another documentary."

And sure enough, what happened is
at the New Jersey Film Festival,

where the film played,

There were people in the audience from Camden,

from an organization called The Heart of Camden.

And about a year later, they reached out

and they said, "We watched this film

and we were wondering,
'Would you be interested

in making another documentary?'

This one on a Catholic priest named
Father Michael Doyle.

He's getting ready to retire,
and his health is not great,

and it's an incredible man
who's done some amazing things.

And, so, we'd like to document his story

or the stories that he tells

because he's a wonderful storyteller.

He was born and raised in Ireland."

And, so, of course, I was thrilled and honored

to be asked to do it, so I jumped at it.

And, so, I said, "Look, there's more to this

than just simply documenting
Father Doyle's stories.

Let's tell his story and let's tell the story

of the Heart of Camden organization."

And this all came from a wonderful couple

named Ann and Mark Baiada
and they own BAYADA.

In fact, they're the founders
of BAYADA Nursing,

in the United States.

And they were so inspired by Father Doyle

that they're the folks who funded the film,

and the idea of creating a film was their
idea.

So you could say they were
the executive producers,

if you will, wonderful people.

And, so, we needed a budget

and they paid for the film.

I agreed to do it pro bono

because both films I completed pro bono

because it was just my desire

to give back a little bit, if I could.

But I used the money

to hire a professional production organization,

a film production company,
called ArtC, out of South Jersey,

which is founded by a fellow
named Bill Horin.

And they were able to really give the film

a very clean, professional,
lovely look, sound, everything.

And then they relied on me
maybe to help shape

and craft the story behind it.

So I was the producer/director
of it, if you will.

And, so, we created this film

and it's a 44-minute documentary.

That documents the journey of a fairly regular
man,

who did some extraordinary things

to help improve a neighborhood,

within a very impoverished city,
again, Camden, New Jersey.

We reached out to Martin Sheen,
the famous actor,

who narrated another film,

that had to do with Father Doyle's poetry,
called "The Poet of Poverty".

And he called me and he said, "I'm in."

Which I was shocked, as you can imagine
my reaction to that.

To hear from him, first of all,

the fact that he responded to my letter,

and he's such a wonderful guy
to work with.

He also did it pro bono, that was
his contribution to give back,

he's a wonderful human being.

So we created this film

and we were accepted into
16 film festivals,

we won a number of awards.

And just as, importantly,
as the film festivals is,

Ann Baiada had a vision of taking it
to universities, which we did,

and we would show the movie
to faculty and to students.

And every single time, probably,
a half a dozen colleges,

folks would volunteer to get involved

to help the Heart of Camden organization,

so the movies really had an impact.

We were picked up
by a distribution company,

and that distribution company
told us, recently,

that there's a firm who
would like to distribute it

or, certainly, show it throughout
the Middle East, of all places.

It'll be translated into Arabic,
and it's being picked up by other,

I'll say, relatively, smaller companies

that are niche-related,

not like Netflix or the big ones,
but smaller companies.

But the movie is out there
and people are watching it,

and every time folks watch it,

I'm always so pleased with their feedback

about how inspired they are
by Father Doyle,

and his statement to just
simply, "Do your bit."

So that's a little bit about
the documentary.

- Well, that's such a huge feat
and done entirely pro bono.

On this podcast, we usually talk
about finance-related topics,

and I can only thank you for bringing

another aspect through your story, today,

because that's important, too,

the social aspect of doing great work.

- Oh, sure thing.

Yes, again, I worked for GE
and it was GE Capital

and everything was about finance,

I mean, everything was about finance.

And, so, I learned, at a very young age

in the corporate world, that finance
is absolutely essential.

And there's the accounting function,
which is critical.

I mean, if those areas are not working,

then companies can come
to a screeching halt,

and the integrity behind
the Chief Financial Officer

and the decisions that they have to make.

And, so, being a part of
the leadership team for SES.

Sitting, basically, at the table right
next to our various CFOs,

I saw, up close and personal,

the pressure that they're under
to make the right decisions.

To tell the right story and accurate story,

it's serious business.

- Thanks for acknowledging that, Doug.

Now, my listeners will not forgive me
if I don't ask you this,

because you mentioned
making parodies of films

for entertainment purposes.

Can you tell us more about that?

And I remember you telling me
about this huge experiment

that you did, tell us more, please.

- Oh, sure thing, yes, we had great fun.

It really started when I was
in the fourth grade,

there was a sixth-grade teacher
named Mr. Mena,

who was a new teacher.

And he, instead of doing
the annual class play,

which was fun but kind of corny.

He decided to make a movie

and it was a parody on "Robinhood",
and it featured the children.

And, so, they wrote the story,

the kids in the class were
playing "Robinhood", et cetera,

and we just went completely crazy.

And I was probably about 10 years' old

when I watched that, and I never forgot it.

So you fast-forward to my time
in human resources

after we were acquired by SES,

and I decided to make a parody
on "The Godfather",

"The Godfather of Values."

It was the company's pretty boring,
stale company values,

and we needed to promote them
and to educate them.

So we did a parody on "The Godfather",

featuring employees and people loved it,

they went crazy over it,

and that was, literally,
a zero-budget movie.

And then we did another parody
on "Star Trek, Execution".

And it was a story of our CEO, as a child,

and how he became inspired
to really embrace execution

as a very important
leadership competency

featuring Captain Kirk
and all of this other stuff,

and then we stepped our game up.

I was transferred to Luxembourg, in 2007,

for a six-month assignment.

And folks who saw "The Godfather"

said, "Hey, can you make
a movie over here?"

And I said, "Absolutely."

And then they gave us a budget.

We had a 20,000-Euro budget,
which was crazy.

I felt like, "This is, probably, what
Steven Spielberg is experiencing."

It was major money to us,

so we hired a production
company, same thing.

The employees wrote the story,

it featured employees, it featured leaders,

and for our staff only,
it was a James Bond parody.

And it was to educate people, employees,
on our job competencies

that were being introduced
to the company.

And as I mentioned earlier,
when you make a film,

you're not sure if it's any good,
you're just so close to it.

You think, "Oh, it's probably not very good."

They went completely
crazy with this movie,

I was shocked it was a blast.

When we showed it, we had
the executive staff, in Luxembourg,

hand out popcorn and candy
before the movies,

and it just exploded, we handed out that.

We had gifts for them,

a DVD set in a professional box,
[Indistinct] and a little pen,

which was an atomic pen that James Bond

used in the movie, blah, blah, blah.

So, make a long story short,

this is the first time that I saw a movie

not just simply educate
and entertain people,

but people told me that that film

began to change the culture
in the Luxembourg office.

It went from a place
that was very structured,

very hierarchical, to something
that became more fun.

And that's the first time that I thought

"Wow, the film can perhaps
begin to change the culture

and influence people
at a little bit deeper level."

And then we made a couple of
more parodies after that.

We did one, and each time from
an education standpoint,

the film would evolve.

We would experiment
with different things,

like the most recent one that we made

was a "Mission Impossible" parody,

where Ethan Hunt is trying
to find the person

who stole the company's knowledge.

Because it was about introducing

knowledge management to the company.

What a boring topic?

So we made this parody
of a "Mission Impossible".

But what we did is there were
three pivotal scenes,

and we filmed, we wrote in three
different outcomes of the scene,

and then the audience
would get to choose

which outcome they think it would be.

So that was our attempt
to make it more interactive

and to, maybe, immerse
the audience in the film

and the story a bit more.

Which based on my Total Recall
experiment, which you mentioned,

what we find is that this
was a five-month experiment

that was conducted, it was really
for my dissertation.

I went to Penn for my doctoral degree,

much later in my career,
while I was working for SES.

And part of a doctoral degree,
as you know, is you have

to conduct an experiment and
then document it in a dissertation.

So my dissertation topic was,
The Impact that Film has on Learning.

Does it have any impact at all?

Maybe you learn less if you show a film,

maybe, you learn more, maybe there's no.

So I was in a unique position

to conduct a five-month experiment,

in a Change Management class
where we would teach,

they were basically six main principles

that we wanted people
to understand and to learn.

And in some classes, we would augment

our teaching PowerPoint
and lecture with film.

In some classes there would be no film.

And then we would have
a quiz afterwards

and take a look at the results.

And five months later,
when we ran the numbers,

what we found is
there was empirical evidence,

that there was this statistically
significant increase

in every single instance
of using film versus no film.

Even when we controlled for various things

such as managers versus no managers.

Something called the language effect,

which is English is your
mother tongue or not.

So there were several things
that we controlled for.

Again, the film had a major impact
on learning, on retention,

and that's where we came up
with the total recall model.

- Wow, thanks for sharing that, Doug.

And I wish all PhDs
were this much fun, right?

- Yes, well, our program director at Penn,

a fellow named Doug Lynch,

who at the time said, "You can choose
pretty much any topic you want,

but we have to approve it."

So we had lunch and I said,
"I want to do either;

The Impact That Humor has on Learning

or The Impact That Film Has."

And he said, "What are you
more passionate about?"

I said, "Film."

And he said, "Film is more concrete.

Humor is hard to hold, and see,
and all of that, so do it on film."

So I really owe it to him
for giving me the thumbs up

and the encouragement to move forward.

But you're right, I remember
a professor said

"If you can pick a topic that's fun

and that's interesting to you,

the dissertation process will
be significantly easier."

And that person was right.

- Now you can tell it to
the rest of the world, I guess.

And I hope leaders are taking notes

on how they can add some spice
to drab topics like company values,

ethics, knowledge management,
et cetera, in their own companies.

- You know, it's interesting,
I've had the good opportunity

to speak on this topic in New York,
and Princeton, Atlanta, California.

Every time I do talk about Total Recall,

and I show clips, it's interactive,
it's really fun.

People afterwards will ask me,
"Hey, can I see a copy of your film?

I'd like to do something like this."

Or what have you.

So it really does get the attention
when we talk about it,

it does get the attention
of various learning leaders.

- Thanks for giving such great ideas

and inspiration from there.

Now, you've also extensively
worked with executive development

and developing potential leaders.

Can you give our listeners,
who are team leaders,

some tips on how they can support

and develop leaders
in their own organizations?

- Certainly, at SES for instance,
and what I'm doing now

as part of my consulting
is leadership development.

And that was always my favorite thing,

at SES, was employee development

and certainly leadership development.

It was great fun, there were
great opportunities,

and one of the things that works
quite well is mentoring.

So if leaders just simply take
the time to listen, and to mentor.

What we tell leaders is
communication is key.

And as Father Doyle said in the film,
"It's the key to everything."

It's the key to families,

it's the key to companies, et cetera.

But communication is key,

and we talk about bi-directional communication

is something that I learned from
a fellow named Mark Steinberg.

And the listening part we say

is more important than the speaking part.

So mentor, listen to folks,
have a conversation,

have a cup of coffee with them.

Tap into what's important to them.

What do they want?

And then help them on their journey,
give them tips,

put them in touch with things

that may have helped you,
may have inspired you.

Whether it's a book by
a popular author, what have you,

but it is basically tapping into
what's important for them,

and then helping them get there.

Showing them that you care, and,
really, listening is very important.

Storytelling is important.

As a leader, if you can develop
your storytelling skills,

it goes a long way with getting
the attention of folks.

Now, what we tell leaders, also,

is one of the unsung heroes, I'll say,
of leadership competencies,

is influencing skills.

So the more you can
influence people the better.

And one way to develop
your influencing skills

is by developing your storytelling skills,

if you can lay a story out.

The reason why something has
to be done or should be done,

and how to get it done,
it's very helpful to folks.

- So true, bringing it back to the basics;

listening, mentoring, and storytelling.

- Mm-hmm, exactly.

- I love how you connected it to mentoring

because the traditional model

of mentor/mentee is now
a little outdated.

It's more about co-mentoring,
where both parties

are learning from each other
and helping each other grow.

- The first time that
I ever heard about that,

it was when I was at GE,
and Jack Welsh,

and when IT and computers
were coming in, and internet.

And these brilliant corporate leaders,

they were really far along in their careers,

and they just had no idea.

So they would do what
they called reverse mentoring.

Where they would have younger
people in the organization

come and teach them about
how to turn a computer on,

I'm being kind of funny, I guess.

But, basically, to learn the basics
and then the next step up.

And they felt the best way

that they could learn that
is from younger folks.

So there was this reverse
mentoring taking place.

But what we find from our executives,

we have an executive mentoring
program in place, at SES,

and it's part of what I do with
my consulting now as well.

And what we hear, consistently,

is the executives say, "It's not
just them learning from me,

I'm learning from them as well."

Which is not a surprise to me at all

because I've learned from people
a lot more during my career,

who worked for me
and who I worked with

than what they've learned from me.

But it's pretty cool
to see it as an eye-opener

for executives that, "Oh, I thought they would be learning just from me,

but I'm learning from them as well."

- That's so true, and I learn from
my daughter every day.

So there's no [Indistinct] of knowledge

if you let yourself stay open
and just listen, like you said.

- What's that saying, parents?

We teach our children about life

and our children teach us
what life is about."

- Ah, that's so beautiful,
thank you for sharing that.

All right, pivoting back to what you said
a little while ago about James Bond,

and how you used that as
an inspiration for making movies.

I heard you go by FilmDoc,
yourself, a code name.

Tell us more about
what you do as a FilmDoc.

- Thanks, yes, it's a play on words.

I'm passionate about film

and when I was going to Penn,
it became clear to me,

and some of my classmates
and a couple of professors said,

"You're so passionate about film
and learning,

you should do more with this."

And, so, film, I'm passionate about it.

Doc is a play on words
for my doctoral degree

and for documentaries, so FilmDoc.

And, so, thank you, I'm glad that
you're cool with the name.

What I do is leadership development,

and the focus is on developing
leaders at all levels,

including individual contributors.

Because, after all, we
as individual contributors

have a leadership role to play also.

The curriculum that we've designed

and we've rolled it out in Europe,
it consists of a full day of,

in the morning we look at the film,
"The Heart of Camden",

the story of Father Michael Doyle.

And we ask people, "What are your
leadership challenges?"

And then we look at the film,
it's a 44-minute film,

we look at it in two parts to dissect it,

to look at examples of
leadership that they see,

or maybe there's a lack of
leadership, what have you.

And, then it's always internalizing

and always putting it back on to the audience, on to the participants.

And then in the afternoon, we talk
a little bit about the leadership

that's required to actually
make a movie, to make a film.

What did I experience making the film,

and what competencies were important?

What mistakes did I make

and what would I have
done differently? Et cetera.

And the reason is because what
we have found is that

when we talk about leadership
and leadership competencies

in the frame, or through the lens of art,

whether it's Shakespeare
or what have you,

it seems to connect with
people at a deeper level.

We've done this before,

and I've seen it done
with Olivier Mythodrama

and some other organizations
and it's very effective.

And, so, to talk about leadership

through the lens of filmmaking,
it is exciting to the audience.

I wasn't sure how this would go over,

but the feedback has been very positive.

I've been invited back a few times,
I'm very blessed to do it,

so it must be working.

And then what we do is,
we then talk about

who is your inspiring leader?

Who's inspired you?

And we talk about what it takes
to actually make a film.

So not just leadership,
but here's how you make a film,

it's about an hour worth of discussion.

And then we break them
into groups of three.

We tell them to go away, and then
to come back in an hour,

and then pitch their idea of their film,

and that we pretend that
we're a venture capitalist

and we want to invest
in the next brief film,

and then they do that.

And then we tell them, "Okay, now, indeed,

you will make a film.

You'll have a month, in groups of three,

to make a film, a micro short."

A micro short is a film that could last
anywhere from two to five minutes,

so it's not a daunting task.

And they'll use their mobile devices,
very basic free editing

such as iMovie or something like that.

And, then, they'll make their film,
and then they'll get to show it

to their organization
at a leadership film festival,

and there's going to be
a director Q&A, et cetera,

so they're quite excited about it.

The other option is there are some firms,

who may not want to do
an afternoon of filmmaking.

So, instead, what we offer is an afternoon

of storytelling for leaders,

or writing, creating your
leadership manifesto.

What kind of a leader do I want to be?

How do I want people to see me
and how will I get there?

And then the other offering,
separate from that curriculum,

is a high-potential program,

which should be broken
into three categories.

The first module is Leading Self,
about self-awareness.

We need to be clear who we are,
as leaders, before we can lead others.

The next one is Leading Others,

and the third one is
more strategic in nature,

Leading the Organization.

And those three, there's
mentoring involved with it.

There is a dynamite skills assessment,

leadership skills assessment,
in the very beginning.

Which includes a 360 and then also
includes a personality assessment,

and the feedback about that
has been fantastic.

That's something that I learned

and that I helped to co-develop
at SES as well.

- And that doesn't surprise me at all.

It's definitely an innovative way

to start a dialogue around leadership

and, of course, learning from
an award-winning director like you.

All right, so, now, we have time
for just one final question.

I really enjoyed chatting with you today

and I wish we could keep on talking.

But one last thought
I wanted to hear from you,

was if you could give a mantra
of success to people.

Who dream of a global career,
an exciting career like yours,

what would be a mantra for success?

- Find out, it's really simple,
it's nothing terribly original.

But someone told me, a really wise leader,

who I had many years ago
and I'm friends with today,

Paul Fairley said, "If you do
what you love doing,

you'll be successful, success will follow."

And that's what I've tried to follow,

just simply, "What do I love doing?"

I started out working
in mortgage banking,

in approving loans for Fannie Mae
and then for GE Capital

and in risk management, I didn't love it.

What I loved was working with people.

So I was able to move into human resources and never looked back.

And then from there, education
was important to me.

So I went to Villanova and then to Penn,

I had these great opportunities,

the company was super supportive.

So I pursued education
because I loved education.

And then film, the more
I discovered that film

was very important to me,
not just from entertainment,

but for other reasons, more
for inspiring then I pursued that.

So it's, basically, just whatever
you love doing, pursue that.

I always tell folks, "Don't focus on
making a lot of money."

Again, if you're successful,

if you'll do what you love doing
and you're successful,

then the financial rewards
will most likely follow.

- Wow, I wish you continue
to do what you love

and what you're really good at, Doug.

It was such a pleasure
to talk to you today.

< Outro >

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