< Intro >

- Welcome back to Count Me In.

I'm Adam Larson from IMA,

or the Institute
of Management Accountants,

for those of us joining us
for the first time.

I'm excited to welcome back,
Michael Teape, to the podcast.

Michael is a seasoned
management coach

and the co-founder and president
of Teape Training International.

Today, we discuss the tips for leaders

in the face of constant disruption

to business as usual.

With Covid, inflation,

supply chain issues, technology changes,

leaders need to stop bracing
for the next curve ball,

and instead look for ways they can adapt

to find new paths to success.

It was great to get Michael's
insight and optimism

on this important topic.

Let's get the conversation started.

< Music >

Michael, thank you so much

for coming back to Count Me In.

We've talked about being
more productive at work

and maximizing our human
capital management,

in the past with you.

But today we're going to focus in on
the disrupted leader.

And I figured we can start off

by what do we mean by
the disrupted leader,

and how are leaders being disrupted?

- I think it's easier to say,

"How are they not being disrupted?"

Because, I think, when you're a leader
in your organization

and everyone thinks about
what's going on?

What are the challenges right now?

There's some common themes

that are only getting quicker,

faster, more challenging.

So you can think of climate change.

Climate change has a huge impact
on how we work?

Where we work?

All of those, and safety elements
of that as well.

Social change; the diversity
of the people we work with now,

that's been being disrupted.

We're not all in the office in one place,

that's another part of
social change as well.

Covid-19, I mean, hello?

Last three years, it's been a real challenge.

And that's one of the biggest ones

because it was an unknown challenge.

The others climate, social,
and the last one, technology.

The technology revolution,

what they call the fourth
industrial revolution,

are the four key areas I see
right now, and there'll be more

There'll be more things
that come along,

let alone the small challenges
of running a business.

Issues with clients, lack of clients,
too many clients,

things not going well with clients,

disruption on so many levels.

So now we've cheered
your audience up.

And, so, it is not an easy place,

it's more about how we react to it,

and technology is one
of the biggest ones.

That fourth industrial revolution

talking about the technology revolution.

It's that people are coming up

with intuitive ways
of breaking our systems

and doing things differently.

If you have an organization

that's run on mainframe
systems, spreadsheets,

there are so much things
available to skip all of that

Fintech, the financial technologies

that really don't have any of those

and are just very simply
making connections.

using the technology
in front of them quicker,

faster, cheaper, that's a huge part

that's going on as well.

So, yes, where are they
not being disrupted, Adam?

- Exactly, I think, you hit it on the nose,

there's so much disruption
happening all over.

But when you're thinking about,
as a leader yourself,

if I'm thinking about my team

and how I act with my team.

Yes, there's so many outside disruptions.

What does it look like, for me,

if I want to look upon myself
and how am I being disrupted?

And what does a disrupted one look like?

Because you don't want
to stay there, obviously.

- No, it's a stressful place to be,
being disrupted,

you're playing defense,

you're frustrated that things
aren't working, which causes stress.

Which also limits
our vision and our focus.

A lot of being creative and getting ourselves out of these issues,

by thinking of new things
that we could do

to face a challenge and move forward.

So, yes, that looks like,
and I'll say this, Adam,

a lot of the time we don't realize
we're in this space.

Call it the disruptive leader,

we don't know that we're acting
in a certain way

because we're under stress.

We've got our blinkers on,

like, "My business
is not making money.

How are we going to
make some money?"

And being stressful, following up
on one particular client

who's never going to give you the money

is a blinkered approach.

You need to be looking at,

"Well, what could I do to create
another million dollars?"

Depending on the size of
your organization; 50, 100, million.

"What could I be doing?"

So they're disrupted,
they're blind to the problem, really.

And what I mean by that is that

they're focused on the minute,
the tactical,

trying to get the number of accounts,

trying to charge more per client.

When really the problem is maybe

what I'm offering the client
is not what they're looking for.

Have you ever thought about that?

And that would be a curious mindset.

So being blind to the problem

is all about losing your focus, overall,

and focusing on
the minutiae and doing...

Have you ever heard that adage,

"If you're ever doing the same thing

and expecting a different result,

that's a definition of insanity."

I love that term, that phrase.

So that's where someone
would be stuck,

that would be one of them.

And that links into the other one

is having no direction, no purpose,

and what I mean is that;
where are we going?

Where do I want to go?

And I think I shared on our last podcast,

a little bit, I'll have to go back

and have a little look at it,

maybe your listeners would do as well.

Is that I was working with a client

who was totally disrupted by Covid.

They were a Fintech.

They were 30% growth
they were aiming at

and it just disappeared overnight.

Because people didn't
need to manage cash flow

because they weren't out spending cash.

And, so, the flow was very different

and it wasn't where their market was.

But instead of panicking
this person found the purpose.

Well, her purpose was
to take over the world

and help the cash management globally,

however, that's not possible right now.

So I believe it's coming back

but let's focus on rebuilding
what we have.

The mergers, the acquisitions,
being more efficient.

Let's focus on fixing what we have,

and we have a dream time right now.

Let's not think of it
as, "Oh, my goodness,

we're not going to grow this year."

We've already made revenue,

so let's take the panic off the table.

But wouldn't it be great
if we had the time

to fix all the efficiencies
and the mergers, now?

Well, guess what,

they have and they got excited
about that and moved forward.

So that's someone who's found purpose

in the disruption that's
happening around them.

What they could have done,

not having purpose, is knuckle down,

and, "Well, we need to get more accounts.

Go sell, go meet everyone
in the industry, sell."

But you're not going to sell something

that people don't need right now.

So you're banging your head
on a brick wall.

So I'm talking about banging
your head on a brick wall,

not thinking about what you're trying

to achieve, overall adjusting.

And that leads me onto the third one,

which is, do you have a psychologically
safe environment or not?

So if you're under stress, Adam, employees, that work for you,

are going to feel the stress

in the way you talk to them,
not making it safe, shouting.

Blaming people, "Well,
why didn't you make the sales?

I asked you to go
and get some more sales."

And that leads me, really,

nicely into the next session

of not allowing people
to express their ideas,

and thoughts, and fail,

and not a safe environment.

If we are too busy pushing
our employees to go out

and sell something that isn't possible,

or make something better
in the disrupted environment.

We don't have the clients right now,

they don't want what we offer.

There's no use shouting
or blaming them,

and that is really when
a leader is under stress,

that's where they're coming from.

They're blaming others.

When really you should be like,

"Well, where does
the blame actually really sit?"

Is it with the person you told to do

an impossible objective and they're
not bringing back a result?

Or is it with the person
who sent them on this mission?

On a mission that they're
never going to achieve?

So let's think of it in that way.

But what we do is
we lash out, we complain.

We get frustrated at people
that don't bring us results.

But they can't bring us results

if they're not focused
on what's going to work.

So that's a huge piece;

is you're not going to get people
thinking differently,

helping us get us out of a challenge,

by shouting at them.

You need to create what's called
a psychologically-safe environment.

And then the last thing
a disrupted leader would be is,

"I need to build something new."

Or, "I need to rebuild this product,

and I'll spend a lot of time working on that

and releasing something perfect."

But the problem with that is that

by the time they've done that,
the world's moved on.

the world's moved on.

So I feel as though
they can't really balance

execution with innovation.

It's like, "Well, we've had some great ideas,

but I just can't get it executed."

And that's a fact.

So blind to the problem,
it's as denial really.

Not focusing on the purpose
and direction,

focusing on the day-to-day.

How you talk to employees.

So that psychological-safe
environment, being blunt,

and blaming others is not going to help.

And, lastly, is spending too long

executing something and releasing,

what you think the environment wants.

When really you need to be checking

in a lot quicker on that.

So they're really the four areas

where leaders get disrupted.

And I'm sure your listeners
can feel the pressure

in one or a multitude of those.

- Yes, I'm sure many
can relate, especially,

with what everybody's gone through

in the last three years, with Covid.

But the other examples you gave

have been going on
for longer than that.

I wanted to shift the conversation

to the other side of it.

We've talked about disrupted,

and there's something else
that you and I were discussing

is the disruptor or the disruptor leader.

Can we talk about what that means,

as an opposite, I guess?

- Sure, yes, so if you are disrupted,

that usually means you're
in a psychologically unsafe place,

you're in an away state.

You're blaming others,
you're frustrated,

you're worried about loss,
losing something,

and you're on the defensive.

None of this is going to be useful

when you're facing a challenge

or your business is facing
a challenge or challenges,

in helping you getting unstuck
and moving forward.

And then the opposite of disruptive

is to be a disruptor.

And that's someone who's
more forward-thinking, curious.

Like, "Oh, this is interesting,
this is different.

This feels totally different;
we've never had this before.

What's causing this?"

Or, "What are our clients
really looking for?

What support do they want
from us and our team?"

And that's an open way of
looking at the environment,

it's a growth mindset, really,
not a fixed mindset.

Looking at the environment,
being open, humble,

hungry to learn what's really going on.

Going and talking to people,

listening to what people
have to say in podcasts,

and reading the latest of
where the industry

might be going based on
what's happening right now.

So that opens it up, that allows you
to see the landscape

in order to find your place in it.

So that would be the first thing,

rather than being blind to the problem.

And then I talked about purpose.

So people say, "Yes,
I know my purpose."

But do they?

They know that their purpose

is to get the reports in for a client,

management accounting,
there are certain tactical things.

But what's my purpose overall?

Is my purpose to stay in business?

That's more reactionary and proactive.

So I encourage leaders,
if you want to get unstuck

is ask, "Well, what do I want to do
for my clients?"

"What do I want to do for my profession?"

And it helps open us up a little bit.

"Yes, I want to achieve that.

How else could I achieve that?"

There's a client that I work for

in the insurance industry.

Very specific and very good
at what they do,

and a very specific market.

But they're reaching saturation point,

so really that's a challenge.

It's none of the industrial challenges

I talked about, although, it will be

when they have to update the systems.

But they are looking at different ways

of helping their clients,
and they're offering training

for their specific housing
associations that they support.

Training on how to be effective,

how to mitigate their losses.

How to less the insurance claims.

So they've gone into this whole
different submarket

that there's a need.

Thousands of their clients
are signing up

to listen to training courses

on a subscription basis for them.

I mean, it's genius
but it came from wanting

to serve your clients, helping them.

"What challenges do my clients face?"

It didn't come from, "I need
to sell more insurance policies."

So that's a big area.

And the last two is if you want

people to be creative,
it's got to be okay for people

to come up with ideas that don't work.

It's they've got to be...
but that, then,

leads me to the last one
is let's be quick to fail.

"Let's try something real quick.

Let's keep it in a two-week turnaround."

Two weeks, "Is this going
to work or not?

We've got two weeks,
let's play with it.

Let's work with it.

Can we test it?

Can we release it?"

So it's a bit like project management

that has moved to the agile mindset,

which a lot of your listeners
will know about.

And that's all about scrums

and, very quickly, what can we
produce in two weeks?

Boom, boom, boom.

We're just going to sprint,

get that out there, and then adjust.

There's no point in my world,
my learning world,

there's no point in me
spending six months

to release a leadership
and development program.

Because I'll be out of date by

who knows what's going to happen.

And it'll need to be adjusted
as soon as I've released,

it'll be old news.

So think of that and what
we are doing for our clients is,

are we hitting what they really need?

Are we curious enough to know
what they really need?

And are we releasing things quickly,

so that helps people to experiment,

it makes them feel safe,
"We'll, give it a go."

And, "Yes, we want it to be successful,

but we're not going
to be upset if it doesn't.

We're going to learn from it
and quickly adjust

to find something that does work."

So that would be my advice,
open, forward-facing,

a clear overall purpose,

making it safe for people to experiment,

safe to fail and expect some
things will not work.

And, lastly, do it quick enough,

do short bursts super quick,
and that helps you to stay agile,

for want of a better word,
in a disrupted world.

- Yes, so if I'm hearing you, correctly,

it sounds like the first step of going

from disrupted to disruptor
is a mindset thing?

Because you've gone over
a lot of very practical steps.

But I think the first step
seems to be a mindset

because you need to change

the way you think about things
and see things,

and then really figure out
your why, in a sense.

So that you can understand
where your business

is going and where you want to go.

- Yes, I mean, you've got
to look outward not inward.

That's the first thing is,

if you are looking for result
and answers within,

and spending too much time
looking at processes,

that's not going to
help you focus on that.

And don't be afraid to go broad
beyond what your limit is.

Like I said with the insurance example,

who thought the training
would be useful?

And it actually brings back clients,

it helps in so many different ways.

You become a trusted
resource to the client

and it doesn't cost much to do it.

So what else have we got?

Really, it's making sure that
we are hungry and curious

to find out what's going on

with the people we serve.

- Mh-hmm.
- Yes, that's it.

Forget Your Troubles,
that's the song, I know.

So forget your troubles
and focus on the client.

- And one thing that
we had talked about before,

that I remember seeing in a report

that we were discussing.

It was saying that,
"Safety drives courage,

and courage drives experimentation."

And I think that's a huge element,

that when you feel safe,
you feel that more emphasis

to be able to,
"Hey, I can make mistakes

and I can do things,
because this is..."

It's almost like,
"I'm in a sandbox right now,

I can do everything I need to do.

And, yes, things may break but it's okay

and we can fix it
and get it back together."

And I think that's really important, especially, for organizations

and for employees who feel this.

When things are disrupted
the employees feel it the most,

because it trickles down to them.

And, so, for them to create
that safe environment,

it's not easy but it's essential.

- You have to create, and that's
what leaders don't realize,

is that if they're frustrated,
and they're worried,

and they're concerned,

your employees take the lead from you.

The way you walk into the room,

the way you describe the situation.

So you could say,
"Oh, we've got a big problem,

we've lost 90% of our revenue."

Which happened to me
and a number of other people

they lost all their revenue,
at the beginning of Covid,

because everything just stopped.

You could come in like,
"Oh, my goodness, yes,

we've lost a 100% of our revenue.

I don't know what we're going to do,

but we're going to try and find out.

I need you to go and see

if we can get some more money."

That's pushing people
in an away state.

Oh, my goodness, it's scaring them.

What you want to do,
is to get them into a place

where they can scenario plan,

and that needs to be a calm area.

Where people can adapt
and say to them,

"Look, the way we've earned money

has paused for the moment, with Covid.

It's no surprise that people have stopped doing

whatever it is that you are
doing, across all these industries.

So how can we help
our clients through Covid?

What is it that we could do,

with everything we've got
available to us,

our resources, our knowledge,

how can we serve them?

How can we help them?"

And that puts people,
just by using that phrase,

in a curious mindset, a forward mindset

And they're like, "Yes."

That you are focusing them
on helping serve people,

rather than worrying about the facts

that your current revenue
stream has dried up.

Do you see what I'm saying there, Adam?

It's a very different way.

Just by the way a leader
phrases problems to their team.

It gives them that unleashing
of potential and it creates,

say you are creating a little
bubble around your group,

and focusing them on being curious,

and trying to help move things forward.

- What role has things like diversity,

equity, and inclusion

had in this disrupted
versus disruptor relationship?

Because I can imagine that
it is a big part of it

and it's becoming a big part,

especially, in our world society today.

Of the things that have happened

over the last hundreds of years
have brought us to this point.

What role does it play when trying

to become disruptor versus disrupted?

- Well, it has an immediate
value to a leader,

and I'm not sure that everybody
really realizes that.

It's having, "Wouldn't it be great

if I could have all these
different ways of thinking

in my team and thought process?"

Because they're more likely
to come up with creative

and different ideas to help us
with this challenge.

So that's the first thing.

So diversity, equity, inclusion,

which then equals to belonging,

are all strapped together, they're a flow.

So I like the analogy of diversity,

making sure that everybody
got invited to the party.

So there's a party, making sure
that we invited everyone,

that's a diversity aspect.

Trying to get as many different
people there and thoughts.

But then thinking, "Well, the equity is

allowing them to get to the party,

access the party, physical access,

to be able to hear the music,
see the music.

If you can't hear it
can they access this?

Is it on the fifth floor
of a walk-up building,

setting things like that.

But the equity is equitable,

so all those diverse
people can access it.

And, then, lastly, everyone
is being asked to dance,

they're been included.

There's nobody sat on the bench.

They're like, "No, everyone's
come up and dance."

Now, you know when you've got it right

because belonging is affected,

belonging is released.

And belonging is a sense
that you feel as though you belong.

The fact that you are very diverse

from all the other people

you're working with, you belong.

So equate that to a party,

That's when I've invited everyone
over to the dance floor

and they're all dancing
like no one is watching

because they feel they're comfortable,

they feel they belong.

Wouldn't it be great
if you had all of your people

feeling like they belong?

They could suggest stuff.

Well, they understand the purpose

but they're free to make suggestions.

They're not looking over,

"Well, I don't want to say that

because my team leader is here

and he's going to laugh at that idea."

And there's a lot of examples we use

in our training case studies
that show companies

that have helped themselves
get out of a hole and a challenge.

And it always came down to having

as wide of a spectrum
of people to pull from.

But then they felt comfortable

to share some ideas,

and they came up with crazy ideas

that would never work.

But then that leads
to the not so crazy idea

that they've never thought of
that does work.

So that's how I see diversity,

equity and inclusion, really,

a powerful tool here
in getting the right people

to help you with the problems.

- It almost seems like that

when you get to that point that,

what you describe,
almost, seems utopic.

That place that we may never attain to

but I feel like we should be working

toward that moment,

where everybody can feel like
they can dance

and nobody is watching.

And I think that would
create the resilience

that organizations need to keep

going forward, in a sense.

- Yes, but the leader
is focused on their troubles

and their challenges.

But if you can focus on,

"Hey, I want to create this environment

where my people feel that
they could say, 'What if?

Oh, have you thought about this?

I've never thought about
maybe we could do this.'"

And you can do that with

small exercises in the group.

You don't have to spend money;

you can get a group together.

How you do brainstorming,
innovation, creativity,

there's plenty of examples
and tips out there.

You can just do with a team
in a conference room.

And one of my favorite examples

is a colleague of mine, Jane Thompson,

she does her work
in the Asia-Pacific region.

And she uses this case study

of the problem of electricity
companies in Alaska,

where ice would form
on the electrical wires.

So we have in America, on those poles,

and it would bring down the wires,

and they could never keep up with it.

They were like, "Well,

how do we get rid of the ice
on the wires?"

So they had a huge brainstorming event,

they came up with all kinds of things.

The crazy idea was,

"We're going to put honey
on top of the wire,

the telephone wire pole."

And they're like,
"Well, why would you do that?"

"Well, so the grizzly bears will come up"

or whatever type of bear,

I'm being a little bit exclusive,
diverse, I'd say.

Any type of bear that
likes honey would climb up

and in doing so would shake
the pole and knock the ice off.

Now, do you think that
would actually work?

- It doesn't sound like it.

- It's a crazy idea.

And we use this in our training to say,

"Well, why would you
come up with that?"

But then it opened
their minds up so much

they came up with the actual solution.

And all you got to do, they found out,

is hire a helicopter,
on those winter days,

just after the precipitation has fallen,

and hover over the wires

and it blows the ice off of your wires,

and you don't have the problem
with broken wires.

No one would've thought
of that before, no one.

But they had to go there first.

So, like you said, you have to aim

for everyone feeling like they can dance,

so no one is watching.

You may never reach that,

but that's not the point,

the fact point is you're trying

to open up their thought process

because then they will access
the real ideas afterwards.

So that's just one example
of many that are out there,

that people can look up quite easily.

- So we've been going a lot
through this conversation,

I think, it's been really helpful.

But there's one thing I keep wondering,

in the back of my head,

is for that disrupted leader,

who's trying to become the disruptor.

How do you still deal with the fact that,

there is always going to be
those minutiae thing

that are still there.

They're still going to be there.

How do you get past that

or how do you still deal with those things?

Because they're still there

and they have to be dealt with,

but also you want to expand your mind

to these bigger things.

So that you can become the disruptor

and become a better leader, in a sense.

- Well, I think, the fact is
we're in this situation.

And, so, you know in a month's time

that you might go out of business

or you need to get some game

by the end of the month.

Just by the changing the way

you are acting straight away.

I'm not asking people to do extra work,

I'm asking them to change
the way they're talking,

change the way they're interacting.

Don't bother phoning up all the clients

you know are not going
to give you the business.

Let's spend a bit more time looking

at what people really need
and talking to

people in the industry.

Do you see what I mean?

Doing all of these things
that I mentioned before,

on a day-to-day basis.

And say to yourself,
"Okay, the first week,

we need to pick something
that might work great.

We're going to try this, two weeks' time,

if it doesn't work,
we'll try something else

or if it works a bit we'll adjust it."

So that's the only real way through this

because you can sit and worry about

something that you know,
"If we don't fix this,

we're going out of business in a month

or we're going to have
to do something else."

Let's get on board early.

Change the way we're meeting;

change the way we're talking to people.

If you have a one-to-one catch up

stop talking about updates

that you know in the
current market composition

that we have an end date,

stop talking about that.

Start thinking about, "What if?"

Talking about what if
in your one-to-ones.

So that would be
my biggest recommendation.

It's going to happen,
so you need to get on board

with, "Hey, if I keep doing
the same stuff it's going to fail.

So what can I do differently
in the way, I talk to people?

Where I'm looking for answers?

Change who I'm talking to in the market.

Let's try and unleash this,

but know that whatever
we come up with

in the first week, we're going to try
and move forward.

< Outro >

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