Welcome back to Count Me In, the podcast
focused on the issues, challenges,

and characters shaping the management
accounting profession. I'm Adam Larson.

Today I'm joined by Mark Herschberg,
serial entrepreneur, business innovator,

and the author of the Career Toolkit:

Essential Skills for Success
that No One Taught You. Now,

lots of people cover career and work
best practices, but if you ask me,

it all can start to sound pretty similar,
but that's not the case with Mark.

There's a good reason he teaches at
MIT, which you're about to find out.

In fact,

Mark had so much insight and advice to
share from his research and years of

building companies and teams, we
ended up recording two podcasts,

the second of which will be
coming out soon. But for now,

let's get started with Mark Herschberg
discussing the fallout from the great

resignation and what he's
learned about how to fix work.

Mark,

I wanted to just thank you so much for
coming on the podcast today and today

we're gonna really focus on the great
resignation and we've all been hearing

this term they've been writing
about it since it started in 2021,

but I wanted to start off by just you
talking a little bit about what what it is

and what it means for everybody today.

Well, thanks for having
me on the show today.

The great resignation is really the
term that is an umbrella term for what

is the largest rewrite of the
capital labor contract that

we have seen in a century.

Now certainly we are seeing
people leave jobs quitting,

finding better jobs, sometimes
going back to their original job,

but it's also a larger cultural change
about what people are looking for in

their jobs. And so we need to
recognize this isn't just, well,

we have to do a better
job hiring or retaining.

It is a shift in terms of what people
want and companies need to adjust

if they wanna stay competitive
in the labor market.

Yeah, it sounds like it,

and it also sounds like companies
really need to focus in on how

do we keep employees as well?

Because I'm sure during the
pandemic employees were seeing,

do I really still need to be here?

And that they started asking
themselves a lot of questions.

Well, that's a really good point.

And you get different answers
depending on who you ask.

When it comes down to any job, it's
really about the communication needed.

It's about who needs to communicate
with whom and when and how best to

do that. It's why we have emails,
slack, phone calls, meetings,

they're all channels of communicating,

whether it's project updates or you and
I coordinating and coming up with ideas.

That's what a lot of work is.

What we found is that certain types
of work can be done from home.

We don't have to be
sitting next to each other.

And people have speculated about
this for years. I work in technology.

We've certainly been on the forefront.

I've been working with teams
all around the world for years.

You can do some of that,

but there are limitations to that
and it seems like we might be

overshooting a bit in that people
don't understand. At first we said No,

you'll have to be in the office
five days a week. It's like, well,

we know we can work when we're
in the office zero days a week.

You can work in both
modes, but is that optimal?

And so there are different facets you
need to look at to decide what is the

optimal number of days for a
particular team at which points.

Yeah,

and it also seems like it's more than
just money that people are leaving because

of a lot of times people leave because
of money or because of culture,

or all those things.

But you can't just throw more money at
your employees and say, Okay, you know,

stay here.

That's exactly right.
Money is a bit of a factor.

And as we record this at the
start of the summer in 2022,

we've been coming off some of the highest
inflation rates that we've seen in a

generation.

And so you do need more money to stay
competitive and other companies are

throwing money at them.
But here's the thing,

you are probably not the highest
payer in your market. One company is,

and it probably isn't you. So if
you're just competing on money,

that's going to be a problem.

What we saw is people are responding
to these other dimensions,

and this is what I meant when I said
it's a rewrite of that capital labor

contract. It's no longer I pay
you money, you do the work.

And so we're seeing employees,
particularly younger employees,

but we are seeing it across the spectrum.

They're looking not just at money
I'm using at Compensation General,

or there's stock options of
salary, but also work life balance,

company culture, alignment
to mission and support,

just to name a few.

We saw companies that back at the
start of the pandemic in 2020,

some of them said, look, it's tough
for everyone. Suck it up and do it.

And other companies said,
hey, it's tough for everyone,

so we're going to give you Fridays off
for the next two months because this is

crazy. Spend some time with your families.

We all need the stress break or what can
we do to support you while you are at

home?

And so the companies that
were more supportive of
their employees were the ones

who basically had more
loyalty and had employees say,

I know you're looking out for
me and are more likely to stay.

So it's important that we really
sell our employees current and

future ones, not just on the compensation,
but on all these other facets.

So it what I'm hearing you say,

it sounds like company culture is a
huge part of avoiding the resignation,

but also, you know, when you,
when new people are coming on,

you wanna make sure that they fit that
company culture to make sure that they're

gonna stay on.

Culture is very important. Now by culture,

I think a lot of companies get this wrong.

They think the culture
is the seven values.

Someone in marketing put on the
website that says customer first or

whatever the mantra is. And I'm
sure there is value to those,

but the actual culture of your team
might be at your company level.

More likely it's at a team or department
level is how you interact day to day.

For example, I have a colleague
who told me at a former company,

the rule was whoever yelled loudest
got their way in the meeting.

I guarantee you marketing did not put
that on the website. But when you show up,

that's how you have to behave.

And if you're not the type of person who
likes to yell and shout at a meeting,

you're not going to be
effective in that company.

Now that's an extreme example and
most people aren't saying, Okay, yeah,

let's put yelling as a team value.

But it is values such as are you
expected to answer an email at

11 at night at some
companies? Yes you are.

Some people are okay with that
because you're paying me enough money.

And I don't mind. Other companies say, no,

we really don't expect you outside
of work unless there's an emergency.

It's things like how often you
are expected to be in work.

It's how much support they're going to
give you. There are companies who say,

we're here, we're gonna
help you with your career.

We're going to help you plan out where
you're going, we're going to develop you.

Other companies say, well,

you're here because we're paying you
and if you wanna be somewhere else or

do some other job, well that
doesn't help me, your boss,

so why would I help you? And
those are very different cultures.

So you really wanna look at that almost
tactical group-level culture in terms of

how you operate the
relationships, the trust,

and the understanding with
other people on your team.

So we've been talking about like company
cultures and how can best help it,

but I can't help but think what if I'm
somebody who left my company during

the great resignation and
I'm thinking, you know what?

What should I be looking for?

What questions maybe I should ask
when I'm going into an interview,

trying my next job that I want to avoid
the culture I was just at and I wanna

make sure that I'm going to the
right culture going forward?

That's a great question.

There are a number of categories
of questions you want to ask.

So let's look at a few of those. You want
to ask about the culture, for example.

And you can ask questions like,

what three words would you use to
describe the company culture here?

What traits do you value in team members?

What personality types are
a good fit for the company?

These type of questions are open-ended,
there's no right or wrong answer,

but it can help you explore what's
important, what those values are.

You can ask about management,
ask to your potential new boss,

what's your management style or approach?

Obviously ask that of the subordinates
as well because they might have a

different perspective. How does
the team resolve conflicts?

Tell me about your feedback process.

What was the biggest conflict that the
team faced and how did they get through

it? You can ask about the job itself.

What type of onboarding
support do you have?

What would make someone successful
in this road? Excuse me,

what would make someone
successful in this role?

Where will this job take me down the road?

You can ask about engagement.

How do you help grow your employees?
What type of support does HR provide?

You can ask general questions.

What's the best thing about
working at this company?

What's the one thing you'd like
to change about this company?

How long do people tend
to stay at this company?

So there's lots of different
questions. And again,

these are not right or
wrong answer questions.

They're questions that give you
insight into the company. Now,

two important things when you bring
this up during the interview process,

because it doesn't often come up.
And these questions, by the way,

are important to both sides.
We're looking for a fit,

a mutual fit. If you think about dating,
it's kinda like asking the question,

do you want kids? There's no right
or wrong answer, but if someone says,

I want kids, and someone says,
I don't, right there, you know,

you two are not compatible and
that's fine. No hard feelings.

This is not good relationship.
So same thing here. These are not

horrible things and there's no
wrong answer, but you're looking,

is there a fit on both sides?

So both the hiring team and the candidate
are interested in answering these

questions and either side can
choose to bring this up. Now,

if you're the candidate,

probably you're going to need
to bring this up when you do so,

obviously be respectful.

You don't want to ask in an aggressive
tone, in a challenging tone,

you want to ask with a polite,
respectful tone. The other thing,

it can still be a little
awkward to bring this up.

So in the articles I've written about
this, here's what I say, blame me.

You can say, listen, I heard this podcast,

there was a guy named Mark Herschberg
and he said we should go through these

questions together.

So I'd like to bring them up now
because now you are not being annoying

and doing something a little unusual.

Many companies aren't used to getting
these questions. Instead you're saying,

this is a recommended best practice I
have heard of. And if they challenge it,

if they say, Oh, that's stupid. Well
yeah, Mark Herschberg looks stupid,

you don't look stupid. You
can, you can dodge that blame.

So it's gonna give you
some protection and cover.

So feel free to do that if you'd like.

But you definitely at some point want
to bring up these questions and explore

it. Otherwise, it's like going into that
marriage without asking questions like,

do you want kids? And
where do you wanna live?

You're probably going in
blind and asking for trouble.

That sounds like it.

And we'll make sure we put a link to
that article in the show notes so that

everybody can take a look at that.
So I, you know, I think those are,

that's wonderful advice and I wish
I'd had that advice many years ago,

the different interviews
that I've been on,

I would've loved to ask those questions.

Are there red flags that people
should be on the lookout for it?

Cause obviously when you're
listening to those things,

you know what you don't
wanna see in a company.

You know what you're looking for,
you know what you've been through.

But are there certain red flags that if
somebody answers one of those questions

this way, run?

Certainly I'd say the yelling
is red flag, at least for me.

Although then again,

I hear stories about at least the
old days in Wall Street where yelling

and screaming and people throwing things,

that's par for the course and certain
people were attracted to that type of

super aggressive culture. It's
really about what's a fit for you.

Let's just take something simple,

asking a question like how many hours
a week do you spend in meetings?

It's a question we don't ask. Now,
there are many people who say,

I hate meetings, I know I have
to do a few of them. Okay,

four hours a week in meetings, no problem.

If they hear 20 hours a week in meetings,
oh my god, that can be soul crushing.

Probably not a fit for you.

There are other people who actually
love meetings and hey, 20 hours a week,

bring it on. It's funny, we ask that
with travel, that's a common question,

What percentage of time is spent
traveling? That's an acceptable question.

But we never ask how much time in
meetings or filling out paperwork

depending on the nature of the role.

So it's really important to break down
the different aspects and just find a

fit. I don't think there's any
universal red flags for the most part,

but it's about what's right for you.

So you almost have to know your why and
what you're looking for to be able to

know what red flags you're
looking for, in a sense.

It goes back to that dating
analogy. If someone says,

my idea of fun is camping
and someone else says,

my idea is dressing up and going to
the opera, they're both valid answers,

but they're probably not compatible.

So as we circle the
conversation back to companies,

how better can companies maybe engage
their employees or get them involved so

that they can avoid this in the future?

There is a very simple tool that you
can use that's gonna provide a number

of benefits, including
upskilling and engagement. Now,

this is based on the 20 years of
teaching that I've done at MIT,

using techniques we use there as well
as the technique used at top business

schools. What you want to do
is create peer learning groups.

It's similar to ERGs, but it's
not based around some designation.

It's not what you happen to be, it's
about what you're trying to achieve.

So you can create general groups or you
can create groups around specific skills

and what you wanna do with these groups.

I recommend groups of about
six to eight people in size,

but you can make them larger or
smaller or go whatever way works for

your team. And in these groups,

which by the way can be done
in person or remote or both,

you want to focus on
particular skills. Now,

I particularly recommend some
of what we call softer skills,

leadership, communication,
teamwork, negotiating.

Those are skills we
don't focus on as much.

But you can also focus
on more technical skills,

particularly accounting
skills or tool skills.

And what you wanna do in these
groups is have folks come together,

engage them with some content,

have them read a book or some articles,

watch a video online,

use a great podcast like this one because
when they engage with the content and

then go and have that discussion,
that's where you get the richness.

You're gonna listen to this podcast and
you hear, oh yeah, important things,

great resignation.

We have to think differently about
how employees want to work with their

companies. That's a start, but it's
not the end of the conversation.

And in having these small conversations,

you start to go deeper into what
these ideas are and what might work.

Same thing with leadership. I can give
you, here's three tips for leadership,

but it's not so cut and dry.

It's not as simple as here's how to
declare this asset on a balance sheet.

It's very black and
white. Leadership is not.

And so it's understanding those subtleties
and that's what happens in these

groups. Now, if you do it,

you're going to get
four advantages. First,

you are upskilling your
employees, that's fantastic,

you get better employees. Second,

you're going to better engage
your employees. You're saying,

we're not just here to get work out
of you. We care about developing you,

we care about helping you. And it's no
longer just compensating you with money,

as we talked about before. They want
to see this type of support. Third,

you're increasing your internal
networks. Really important,

especially as we're in a hybrid workplace
that we really focus on spending more

time getting to know each other and
relating to each other and building those

internal relationships. And fourth,

you're creating a common language because
if, for example, you pick the book,

like you have the name if for example,
you pick the book Good to Great,

they talk about the hedgehog model.

And if you use that book and
everyone's read it, you can say, oh,

well let's apply the hedgehog model.

Everyone knows exactly
what you're talking about.

So you have common stories and patterns
that you can more easily apply.

So if you want to do this,

there's a free download on my
website under the resources page,

the Career Toolkit development program.
You can use my book for it if you want,

but again, if you don't wanna use
my book, use a different book,

use other free content,

and this is going to help engage and
upskill your employees completely free.

That's great. And we'll put a link
to that in the show notes as well.

I really feel like that engagement
is one of the key factors

of keeping your employees where they are,

not necessarily where they are,

but keeping your employees engaged
in the company. They know the why,

they're connected with their teammates,
with people outside of their team.

They can connect with the higher ups.

It it's a way to kind of connect
everybody because otherwise you,

especially while we're all at home or
we're doing hybrid models and all those

other things,

you feel disconnected so much from people
and that really feels like a way that

it brings people together in
a way that we haven't seen,

especially during the Covid era.

It does because it puts you together in
discussions that aren't just about the

monthly report that you're so tired of
talking about because you did last month

and the month before that this
engagement's also important because we are

getting into hybrid workplaces.
It means the onboarding,

the time it takes for
someone to get up to speed,

not just on the technical aspects,

but fitting into the team is
often taking longer these days,

which means our existing employees
are even more valuable because they

have the established relationships and
networks and we really want to keep them

so we don't lose those.

So Mark, if people wanna
know more about this,

where can they get in touch with you?

You can go to my website,

the Career Toolkit book.com
(https://www.thecareertoolkitbook.com),

and there of course you
can get in touch with me,

learn more about the book I wrote,

get the questions we mentioned or other
free downloads on the resources page.

All this is here to help you better
engage and support your employees.

So Mark, as we wrap up the
conversation, I just have to ask,

is the great resignation over?

We have likely passed the peak,

but there are going to be echoes for years
to come and these echoes will come in

different ways.

Some of it will be as companies
work on their work from home policy,

a company may say,

we want everyone back five days and they
start losing employees. They say, Well,

we better switched to three days.
Or they might try three days,

realize that doesn't work
and switch to five days,

then lose people in the future.

So as we tweak policies in companies or
industries, we're going to see echoes.

We're also going to find that working
very remotely and some companies have

moved fully remote
works in the short term,

but there are long term implications.

We know people can mechanically
do their work from home.

We've been doing that for two years.

But what about those relationships
that they're trying to build?

What about the long term strategy?

What about thinking beyond the
tactical day-to-day work we do that may

not be as easy at some companies
when people are primarily remote.

And so they're gonna find this isn't
quite working and we have to change up,

which again, are going to
cause echoes down the road.

Even things such as if you
move to an island in the South

Pacific and you do your
work, you're getting it done.

But if you're not showing up to the
office in building relationships in your

industry or in your company,
that may hurt you in the future.

We're even seeing potential DEI
issues. And here's a really tricky one.

We've heard people talk about if
you don't set a standard policy,

everyone has to do X days in the office.

What happens is women and
certain underrepresented groups

tend to do more work at home. They
have more home responsibilities.

So if you make it flexible,
they're in the office less,

white males are in the office more.
Well, who is more likely to get promoted?

Now we have a DEI problem. On
the other hand, if you say, Well,

everyone needs to be in the office three
days a week. I've heard the complaint.

Well now people who have more
home responsibilities say,

I don't want three days a week. I want
two days a week. Who leaves your company?

It's again, women and
underrepresented groups.

Now you have a DEI problem again.

So there's a lot of challenges and we
don't know yet how they're going to play

out.

So I think we're going to continue to
see some echoes of the great resignation

for many years to come.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard and you'd
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education, visit IMA's website at

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