Welcome back to Count Me In,

the podcast that explores the world of
business from the management accountant's

perspective. Today,

we have a special edition as we take a
closer look at the groundbreaking new

DE&I solutions report produced
in partnership by IMA,

the International Federation
of Accountants, or IFAC,

and the California society
of CPAs. The report,

entitled Diversifying
Global Accounting Talent:

Actionable Solutions for Progress
is now available on the IMA website.

Just follow the link in the show notes.

Here now to discuss the findings
and why this report represents one,

if not the largest collective of DE&I
initiatives in the history of global

accounting profession is Jeff
Thomson, the president and CEO of IMA,

Kevin Dancey, CEO of IFAC,
and Denise LeDuc Froemming,

president and CEO of
CalCPA. Let's get started.

Well, thank you so much, Kevin
and Denise for joining this very,

very important podcast.

We're all committed to increasing the
relevance and influence of our great

profession and talent
pipeline and talent retention,

and certainly diversity, equity,

and inclusion is an important
part of that equation. I'm very,

very proud and honored to have partnered
with both IFAC and Cal state side

of CPAs in this groundbreaking
DE&I research our

organizations have collaborated
on over the past bunch of months.

I believe that the breadth and depth of
topics covered and really getting close

to the issues at hand is arguably
unsurpassed by any other study out there,

but it's not a competition,

it's about improving the profession
and its its relevance and an age

of disruption and uncertainty. You
know, there were some hard truths,

hard data points that came
out of the surveys that we did

both in the US and around the world,
the Middle East, Africa, Europe,

and Southeast Asia. Speaking
about inequity, for example,

fewer than 60% of the 8,000
sampled believe the profession is

equitable or inclusive,
that's a startling number.

And so it very much is a call
to action to partner together,

to understand how we can
create diverse pipelines,

how we can create an incredibly diverse
and inclusive profession because of

an overarching perspective that improves
the attractiveness of the profession

to all types of individuals and our
relevance and influence going forward is

absolutely paramount. Look,

we can't touch on every point in the
research that came up in this particular

podcast, but would love to hear
your reactions. For example,

to the more than 70 specific
actionable practices

recommended in the report.

These over 70 actionable practices
have been mapped back to the

17 UN sustainable goals,
sustainability goals for 2030,

for example, goals on quality
education, gender equality,

and reducing inequality.

So let's talk about some of the
findings and I need to be quiet

and listen and learn. So
according to the research,

there is greater diversity across
the broader profession than in

leadership positions. In a comparison
of female respondents, job titles,

across all regions,

to those of male respondents with
similar education levels and experience,

it was revealed that male respondents
are holding more senior positions

than in females. And that typically
also extends to other diverse groups.

Second,

the research points to women and members
of other diverse demographic groups in

each region believing there is some
level of inequitable treatment and

exclusive behaviors that impacted
career decisions and prompted some

actually about 12% to actually
leave our great profession.

So starting with Denise as
a leader in our profession,

what is your reaction to the findings
in this area of gender and other

forms and inequities, inequalities,

and similar challenges you're facing
in a very diverse state of California.

Denise?

Well, thank you first. Thank you, Jeff,

for having me on the podcast today
really appreciate being here and also

thank you for just,

we really appreciate partnering
with IFAC and IMA on the

survey. It's very important as you said,

and there's a lot of
great actionable items,

which I was so happy to
see within the survey,

cuz it gives others a pathway to move
forward. So that's important. You know,

in regards to gender
parity, I think COVID,

we could all probably agree that it
didn't really help on the advancement and

the momentum that we had in
2019 on with women within the

workforce. A lot of women left
to take care of their families,

no judgment there it's just
what happened. It's the reality.

Often I think women and diverse
populations are underutilized

within the profession.

They aren't provided the
opportunities to stand up and to

learn new skills or competencies.
So I did talk to Dr.

Mithu Dey from Howard
University. And she had said too,

that there's research out there.

And she mostly looks at the black
accountants and their experience,

but she said advancement and retention
challenges are really the result of them

not obtaining assignments
that help them develop.

And they don't have the social networks
a lot of times to provide that informal

career advancement. And I
think we could all agree.

I know myself that I've
benefited from others helping

me to move ahead, giving me
opportunities. And if you don't have that,

that's definitely a gap.

And it also provides you with the
thought that maybe you wanna leave the

profession because you don't have the
network and you don't feel that sense of

belonging or welcomed environment within
maybe the organization that you're in.

And there's a lot of statistics out
there that really promote the fact

that there is not equitable
treatment all the time.

So a lot of times we say to see
me is to be me. And I think,

you know, Heather has said
that at times as well,

and it's really having that awareness
and acknowledgement that there is a gap

within the profession and
understanding that gap.

So you have to know where you're at to
know where you need to go a lot of times.

So it's,

it's on the acknowledgement and awareness
that the profession does have a gap.

And then also the belief that there is
an untapped resource out there and that

will provide the leadership
and the innovation to move
the organization forward.

And also having that as a priority
within the organization and the tone

at the top,

making sure that it is within the
fabric of the organization to have DE&I

at the forefront and have
programs that support that.

So essentially having it
hardwired within the organization.

Right. Thank you, Denise so much. And
you know, before I turn it over to Kevin,

I think three of us would
probably agree very,

very passionately that we've
got a great profession.

We need to do a better job at
telling the story of the professions,

making a difference in society.

But we also have to create a better story
and to see it is very powerful. Kevin,

what's your thoughts on the question of
gender parity and retention or similar

challenges for other diverse
groups from an IFAC perspective,

you get to see the world actually,
which is pretty incredible.

Thanks, Jeff. And thanks for
having me here today as well.

I think Denise has covered a
lot of the points quite well,

but it's very clear that in terms
of advancement and retention

we really have work to do as a profession.

I think it's showing in the data from
the four regional studies, you know,

more than 60% of female respondents

as well as members of diverse demographic
groups explored in each regional study

report personally experiencing
inequitable or exclusive treatment in the

accounting profession that they have
perceived to be rooted in biased against

people like them.

Also 12% of women have also indicated
that these inequitable and exclusive

experiences have contributed to their
decision to leave the profession

altogether.

So these numbers are upsetting but
reinforced that we must do more as a

profession to ensure a comfortable,
inclusive work environment. But I think,

you know,

one of the great things about that
report is that now not only do we

have some really good data
to base our risk responses

on going forward,

but that the report really tries to
get to pragmatic solutions that the

profession can adopt. And I
know throughout this podcast,

we will delve into some of those as well.

Great. Kevin, thank you for those
thoughts. By the way, just going back to,

if we're allowed to go
back on this podcast,

but going back to something
Denise said that I think you

also alluded to is, you know, it
does seem that disruptive events,

whether it's the pandemic or other
disruptions that we've all seen and

felt does seem to
disproportionately impact females,

lower income caregivers, et cetera,
et cetera. So we've gotta be very,

very careful that as we plan for
the future and make some bold

steps forward,

we take into account that things are
probably gonna get more challenging rather

than less. So thank you for that.

So we've alluded to the fact that
in this groundbreaking research

there were well over 70
actionable practices that were

put together through benchmarking
through think tanks and through other

means as we indicated earlier,

they are mapped back to the
17 UN sustainable goals for

2030. And there's many
examples for instance,

in attracting groups to
the accounting profession.

There's the thoughts of more
communications and outreach to

underrepresented groups.

Are we being creative and
innovative and comprehensive in our

outreach to bringing in new
talent into our organizations,

things like anonymizing - am I
saying that - anonymizing resumes

prior to having them received during
the recruitment process to minimize the

effect of bias and these 70
or so ideas or initiatives

or practices are grouped into
two categories in the report,

if you recall on the there's
the attracting talent,

and then there's also retaining and
developing or developing and retaining.

Another example is in terms
of attracting talent developed

partnerships with primary schools and
local organizations that demystify

accounting roles to youth.
So even starting earlier,

right in the bid to tell the
story of this great profession.

So Kevin start with you,

what's your take on the 70 practices?

How do you prioritize
them? How do you get going?

What are some things perhaps IFAC
has done either on the attract and or

retain developed side?

Thanks, Jeff. You know,

while it appears as an easy to implement
practice I don't think we should get

ourselves and it will be
quick or easy for that matter.

Cuz I think removing unconscious bias
from decision making really is a lifelong

learning process. And we need
to work on undoing, frankly,

generations of systematic bias. You know,

with respect to attracting talent,

one de facto place to start which you
alluded to is by utilizing software

to remove names from resumes or gender
specific language from job postings,

because doing so puts the focus on
the requirements of the job and the

professional capabilities of the
person without regard for demographic

characteristics. So that's one example.

I think another area that will be
important for us to focus on is how we are

encouraging young people to enter
that profession to begin with.

And I think this gets back to the point
you alluded to earlier in terms of

getting our story out there and getting
our story out there in the right way.

If we don't have good diversity,
you know, right now at that point,

why not, you know,

for people entering the profession
and are the job postings off putting

towards, you know, specific
demographic groups?

I think these are the questions we need
to explore because ultimately our work

starts with marketing the profession as
a viable and desirable career path to

all. And I think, you know,

with all the work going on in the
world today around sustainability

reporting and ESG reporting, et cetera,

I really think we can position this
profession as one with a real sense of

purpose going forward, which I think will
be attractive to the next generation.

So I think it's really important to weave
that into our story going forward in

terms of the sense of purpose that an
individual can have and also how that will

lead to a viable and
desirable career path,

kind of another effective place to
start could be by providing internship

programs to undergraduate students.

We've done this the last couple of years
at IFAC and one of our interns from

last year's summer program is
now working for PWC. So again,

just looking at different new
ways in terms of engaging young

people with our profession going forward.

I think there are options
there for to explore.

Great, great thoughts, Kevin,
and as a proud member of IFAC,

I wanna thank you and IFAC for its
proactive statements and initiatives

working with the IFS foundation,

others to make ESG environment,

social governance and integral
part of our profession,

where we can make a difference
in terms of unbiased results and

results with a reasonable
level of insurance.

It's all about making a difference and
being a purpose driven organization.

If we do that well,

we will attract a whole new
set of inspired students

not to mention the move toward
data analytics. So Denise,

going back to you know,
the question at hand,

I know in some media interviews yourself
and Heather on your team have done a

really nice job at articulating some of
what you're implementing at Cal state

side of CPAs,

but what is your thoughts as
well on the 70 plus actionable

practices and how organizations
can get going get started and

keep it moving.

Mm-hmm, I do agree. I mean,

with both of you that having that 70
actionable practices provides a starting

point, a great starting point for anyone.

It's kind of a menu in which you
can choose where you're at and

the next step that you
wanna move forward on.

So it allows you to customize in a
way, a pathway or a roadmap forward.

So I think that's helpful cuz everyone's
in a different spot and they need to be

able to see and have that pathway
of how others have implemented.

I think a good starting point first is
to really have a committee or a group

that can be that village or
that team to help promote,

nurture and support a
program. Because without that,

you are just going in
many different directions,

a lot of time and you don't
have a focus pathway forward.

So I think that's a really good beginning
point for anyone and to make sure that

you have the members and you have buy
in from various groups and stakeholders,

cuz that helps you move forward in a
more deliberate and intentional way.

I would say also to have awareness
and look at, do an audit,

to see where you're at truly, what are,
what position are you in currently?

Cuz then you can know, like I said before,

where you need to go and what you need
to put into place and share the plan with

others, have that tone at the top,

make sure there is buy-in by
others because without that,

it's really difficult to move forward.

And I would agree with what both
you and Kevin said on the story.

We have to be able to tell a compelling
story that resonates with different

audiences. So it isn't
always the same message,

but it has an element of a
message that is really at

the heart of what others are
looking for because every different

diverse group wants something different.

We hear that a lot of individuals that
want to come into accounting want that

are attracted to the
entrepreneurship that is available.

So we have to be able to tell the story
in different ways that resonate with

different audiences. And I would say it's,

it is a profession I love, I
wear my I love CPAs button,

but it is my profession.

So it's important to me that it
is sustainable going forward.

And I think we're poised to really comment
on and be involved in many of the new

initiatives that are out
there, ESG being one of them.

Great. Great. Thank you. And Denise,
while we're on a bit of a roll here, so,

you know,

we've spent a bit of time
on the attracting talent
and telling the story and

making the story even better.

Let's talk a little bit more
about the retaining and promoting

diverse talent for the longer term
outcome of creating a sense of

belonging, culture of belonging. You know,

a quote I read on some of the research
on hybrid work said belonging is all

about leadership. It's not about location,
right? Which we're all dealing with.

I'm sure some of the recommendations
in the report on the retain and promote

side includes offering onsite daycare,

establishing or expanding parental leave,

collecting demographic data to assess
equity Kevin's point about let's use

data science to help in our
recruiting efforts and regularly

engaging with staff or
members in a association,

for example to assess employee
sentiments toward DNI, DE&I,

why are we even talking about it?
Is that for us to be doing well?

How is that an integral
part of the profession?

So what are your thoughts
on some of these actions or,

or thoughts initiatives in the area of
promoting and retaining and how can we

lead by example?

I would say just to your point,

facilitating that inclusive
work culture and that sense of

belonging is extremely
important for everyone.

And it isn't just, as you said,

within the confines of
the physical office space,

but it is feeling that you're
valued within that organization and

having the DE&I programs
that thrive in our avenues to

really speak up and for
you to be yourself at work,

I've heard so many times is extremely
important to everyone within the

organization and to have that support
with the tone at the top and having

leaders that support kind of where
you're going and understand really

what you value within the organization
and where you need to go professionally

and having mentors.

I think mentors are really
important within an organization
and sponsors so that

you feel there is a pathway
for you to move forward.

And I hear that with the members as well,

having that mentor so that they
know the pathway that is available

to them,

cuz it's difficult sometimes to move
forward and to know where to go and having

someone that's in your corner that can
provide the roadmap is extremely helpful.

And I think a statistic that I've
heard is that 70% of underrepresented

racial and ethnic groups do not have
equitable access to sponsors or mentors.

And that's extremely important.

Because we all need that support within
the organization to help us move forward

in our career. And without that,

you just don't really know a lot of
times where to go next and what that next

step is.

That's great. And Kevin alluded to
the importance of internship programs,

but mentoring programs,

mutual coaching programs we have to
dig deeper and more innovatively.

So great. Thank you so much,
Denise, shifting gears a little bit,

I'm sure we'd all agree that one of the
cornerstones or table stakes for our

profession is commitment
to professional ethics.

The international ethics standards
board for accounting takes this very,

very seriously. Kevin,

the general question is what is
the relationship between DE&I

and ethics and even
ethics codes, for example,

should there be direct or
indirect reference to DE&I in

ethics codes is probably the
broader question for consideration.

Thanks Jeff. Great question.

I think I'd start by saying inherently
ethics and DE&I are linked together.

As accountants,

we have a responsibility to uphold the
highest standard of ethics and make fair

decisions free from bias. So that's
kind of a fundamental principle 101.

And I think in the report,

it's outlined that compliance along
with the IESBA code of ethics principles

can help support the
effectiveness of DE&I programs.

Now while the IESBA code does
not expressly address DE&I

it's overarching requirements note the
importance of having ethical values that

align internal organizational cultures
to the principles of ethics in

the code and compliance with the codes,

principles of ethics can help support
the effectiveness of DE&I programs,

you know, for example compliance
with integrity involves fair dealing.

Fair dealing includes respecting
and promoting values of DE&I.

Also compliance with the principle
of professional behavior lead a

professional accountant to avoid being
associated with discriminatory or biased

practices that are not aligned
with fundamental tenants of DE&I,

and consequently, the organization's
DE&I related programs and policies.

The code also imposes our responsibility
for professional accounts to take

action if they become aware of
or suspect non-compliance with

laws and regulations,

which would include DE&I
related laws and regulations.

So there's quite a bit of connectivity
and alignment between DE&I

and ethics for professional accountants.

Thank you, Kevin so much for those
thoughts on the fact that DE&I,

and sound ethics are linked
and joined at the Hep

as mutual enablers.

We already talked about the
fact that as we evolve into ESG:

environmental, social
and governance aspects,

that there too a diverse,

equitable and inclusive environment
goes hand in hand. So the S,

the social aspect of ESG talks
about human capital and board

diversity, and so very, very,

very important for professional and
accountants and business to play a leading

role. So, as we wrap up, as we know,

more than 60 professional accountancy
organizations around the globe joined us

as we call DE&I advocates committing
their organizations to collaborative

action for change.

This is a grand opportunity to
address and mitigate the risk and

seize opportunity to grow and
expand the diversity, relevance,

and influence of our great profession. So,

given the magnitude of this and the
opportunity here, start with Denise,

what closing thoughts would
you give to kind of capture the

path forward?

I would say first, just
have conversations.

So you understand where you're at and
you have the awareness that you need,

and then take action, take a step
forward, lean in and do something.

Because a lot of times there's a lot of
conversation and we need to really take

action.

So I would urge anyone who signed
on our CalCPA members to take

immediate action and utilize
those 70 action steps, select one,

reach out there's organizations
that are noted on there,

reach out to an organization and
ask for help because everyone

will help and assist. And they're more
than willing to give you a hand up.

So I would say, have a conversation,

take an action and enlist those leaders
and stakeholders that you feel could

help you move forward. It's
extremely important. And just,

we're so happy that we had the 60 that
signed on cuz it shows the interest and

the commitment to DE&I,
and moving forward.

Great. Thank you so much,

Denise and a hundred percent agree having
conversations and many of them with

multiple stakeholders
critically important. Kevin,

what are your closing words of
inspiration here? Put you on the spot.

I think the important next step, Jeff,

is to begin to take new
actions as a result of what
we've learned and the report

generated an inventory of more than
70 actionable DE&I practices each

map to relevant UN SDGs, which
millions of accountants can implement.

And as you said earlier,

the actionable DE&I practices fall into
one of two overarching categories that

represent necessary strategic objectives
for the accountancy professions,

DE&I efforts,

the first was attracting diverse
talent and the second was retaining and

promoting that diverse talent,

effective solutions are needed to increase
representation at all. Career levels,

effectively measure DE&I
progress and at coordinated,

widespread improvement across the
profession. Bottom line, Jeff,

is that the time is now to affect
change and unite the profession in a

collaborative approach to
solving these challenges.

Great. Thank you so much, Kevin
and IFAC, and Denise and CalCPAs.

It's been a privilege
speaking with you today.

I can't tell you how
proud I am personally,

and on behalf of IMA for partnering
with you on this groundbreaking and

actionable research. Look,

we all want a fair and equitable workplace
where people feel valued and belong,

a sense of belonging and it's
talent that's gonna move this

profession forward more than
anything else. And you know,

when you think about it nothing less
than the future relevance and influence

of our great profession is at stake.

So let's approach this challenge as Kevin
and Denise have said with a sense of

urgency, a sense of pride,
and a sense of inspiration.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.
If you like what you heard,

and you'd like to be counted in for
more relevant accounting and finance

education, visit IMA's
website at www.imanet.org.