Welcome to the Count Me In podcast.
I'm your host, Adam Larson.

And my guest today is Tamara Ghandour,

a leader in the field of human-centric
innovation and its pivotal role in

helping individuals and businesses
create breakthrough outcomes.

Tomorrow is the president
of launch street,

the founder of everyday innovator's tribe,

the host of her own podcast
and the author of the book.

Innovation is everybody's business.

She is also the creator of
the innovation quotient edge,

a powerful tool for determining
your unique innovation style.

This was a really insightful conversation
with great tips for unleashing your

innovation potential.

So here without further ado is
my talk with Tamara Ghandour.

So Tamara, thank you so much
for coming on the podcast today.

I'm really excited to have you on,
and as we talk about innovation today,

I wanted to kind of focus in a little
bit. so you talk about how innovation is,

how you win against the winds of change.

So maybe we can start off by talking
a little bit more about that.

Yeah, Adam, I think first of
all, thank you for having me.

I think that's a great place to start
because it sets the stage for why

innovation is so important and how we
can leverage it in ourselves to add value

and to contribute and to
carbon niche out for ourselves.

So here's the thing and I I'm sure we
can do a whole podcast on everything

that's going on, but let me just kind
of sum up the winds of change for us.

And the reality of the world
that we're in. So, you know,

we've got COVID which
accelerated everything.

So we'll just leave that as the blanket
statement, but on top of that, right,

we've got AI and technology taking
over a lot of the base jobs.

A lot of the functions that we have
been known to do as humans in our roles,

things that we're used to doing, but AI
and technology can now do a lot of that.

So we've got that happening.

We've got web 3.0 in the metaverse
coming and kind of how that's going

to change everything.

I just heard about a project where
healthcare going on to the metaverse like,

it's incredible, what's happening over
there. And then on top of that, right,

you've got decentralized finance,

you've got the great resignation of
where is everybody and why can't I find

people to hire or keep people, right?

You've got that going
on as a wind of change.

And then we've got a lot of uncertainty
with global politics and just the state

of the world. So I say all that, and
it sounds like a lot of doom and gloom,

but let me focus in on where I
think actually it adds to a lot of,

opportunity, you know, when times
are stable, it breeds efficiency,

but it also breeds complacency when
times are unstable. Like we're in now,

it breeds resilience.

We've seen a lot of that from all
of us in the past couple of years,

but also innovation, a chance to
change and to innovate. And you know,

the thing about being an innovator that
I think is so important right now is

when you look at all of that,
particularly AI and technology,

that's doing the baseline of our
job. What that actually means.

If you look at it in the right way,

is that we have the opportunity to
do something that is uniquely human,

which is that creative problem
solving that empathy, that innovation,

that strategic thinking. So we
actually have the ability right now,

more so than ever with everything going
on to actually bring those insights,

to bring that innovative mind to the
table and be that strategic voice

that our clients, our leaders,
our teams, our customers,

that they all need right now.

So the uncertainties crazy on
one hand yet on the other hand,

the winds of change is what allow us
to innovate and shift and change and do

things in a way that's, that's
different and unique to us.

Hmm. So, you know, you have this
concept that you talk about a,

bit as about an everyday innovator.

So we're talking about innovation
with the winds of change.

What is that everyday innovator style.

And why does it matter when
we're trying to have these,

when we're trying to sail the winds
of change, if you will, .

I like the way you said that
I'm going to sail the winds.

That's a great way to
say that. So every day,

and being an everyday
innovator is so important,

but let me kind of back up as to
why oftentimes with innovation,

we buy into these myths and
I see this all the time.

I've been in business for
25 years now. And you know,

we think it's Suzie down the hall with
a purple streak or the Elon Musk and the

Steve jobs and the JK Rowling's and
maybe the Oprahs of the world, right?

Like they're bestowed with
something that we don't have,

or we think it's for certain times,

like the 3:00 PM brainstorm with the SCED
markers and the blank eel pads, right.

But every other time, just keep
your head down and do your job.

Or we think that it is, for
certain departments, right?

Marketing R and D or certain
industries, technologies Silicon valley.

But that actually is a sliver of
what it means to be an innovator.

And what I really come to see in my
years of experience is that the best

innovation comes from the places
where you least expect, right?

The everyday innovators who are
out there rolling up their sleeves,

doing their jobs, the best
innovation is small. It's big,

but it is inside all of us. And, you know,

I used to believe that a
little bit of those myths too,

but we did a lot of research.

We dug into the neuroscience
and to change principles.

And what we actually found out in our
research is that we all have the ability

to innovate. So we all have
the structures in it, right?

Neuroscience shows that it's a whole
brain experience that MRIs light up when

people create a problem, solve strategic
thinking, you know, think differently.

and our brains are flexible.
We can actually get stronger.

It's called neuroplasticity,

but the way that all comes together and
why it's so important is that Adam is

you and me in the roles that we do
when we bring innovation to the table

and what we have right in front of
us, we can get incredible impact.

We can create those breakthrough
outcomes. So, you know,

innovation being siloed, just
sabotages it for all of us. When we,

as everyday innovators, when we
understand that about ourselves,

when we unleash that about ourselves,

that's where we start to see
the value and the difference.

And we see it in individuals, leaders,

and in teams and how they perform as well.

It's why we built the assessment
to tell people how they innovate,

because we wanted people to
say, oh, this is how I innovate.

Cause I don't know about you, Adam, but
I got pretty tired of hearing people go,

you need to innovate. And I was like, how?

And then I would try to
do it the way you did it,

but it didn't work for me because you
do it in a way that's different than the

way I do it.

So understanding your everyday
innovator style allows you to tap

into what's actually
already inside of you.

All we're asking you to do is amplify
what you're already incredible out.

Maybe you're not using it. Maybe
you've been trained out of it,

but you know what?

It's a lot easier for me to tomorrow
to innovate in the way I innovate then

Adam, to try to do you and vice
versa. So that's why it's important.

That makes sense. Now you've said,

you've said that anybody can be an
innovator and a lot of times you'll get a

book by like a Josh Linkner
and you're like, wow,

look at all this great
innovation that I can do,

but you may not be able to apply it
exactly how you've seen somebody write it

out.

Are there other like sabotages
to innovation within a team

organization?

What are some things thatt you you've
seen that kind of prohibit people from

becoming that innovator?

Yeah. So, and I, Josh is great by the
way, but I, but I will tell you, you know,

I,

I take issue with a lot of the innovation
experts out there because I think they

give us these big lofty
processes and culture things.

And the rest of us are like, I can't
give my people 20% to do nothing.

I I can't do, you know, a kombucha
bar I can't, you know, to,

for people to collaborate. So
it that's the part that like,

I could go on a whole soap box about that,

but I think innovation should be
accessible like in the moment.

And it should be something that we all
get to do. So when I look at teams,

I work with a lot of them and there's
a couple things that really sabotage

innovation inside a team
or inside any organization.

So one of them is that 3:00 PM
brainstorm with the SCED markers I talked

about because what we're then doing is
telling our people, Hey, guess what?

I only want you to innovate for one hour
in this week and that's at a 3:00 PM

brainstorm, but for all the
other hours you're working,

just keep your head down.

And what we're doing is we're actually
minimizing innovation in all the times w

here actually we would have the
ideas where it would make an impact.

And then we shuffle into the brainstorm
and we're cold and it's, you know,

it's dormant and we
haven't used it in a while.

So that's number one is thinking that
innovation has to be this one hour,

you know, a week, a month kind of thing.

When it really should be something we're
doing all the time. Just number one.

The second big thing is, and I know,
because I have been guilty of this.

I'm just going to own it early in
my career is we reward outcomes,

not behaviors. So let me just
share a quick story with you.

I'm leading a team of about 12 we're
all in innovation. Funny enough, right?

We're consultants, we're working with
big companies like Proctor and gamble,

general mills Clorox.

And one of the things I used to love to
do as a VP is get input from everybody i

n the organization about challenges. I
would try, I was trying to solve. Now,

this is pre like everybody's online all
the time. So I would put up no joke,

an easel pad on the wall. And
in the middle of the circle,

I would put this like, here's the
challenge I'm trying to figure out.

We need new revenue streams for X, Y, Z.

We can't figure out this challenge
on this client, whatever it was.

And I would ask for people
to submit sticky notes.

And what I noticed is that I was getting
these great sticky notes from three of

the 12 people over and over again.
Right. And I thought to myself, love it.

But what I need is from everybody, right?

I need all the perspectives to come
together to solve this challenge.

And I wasn't getting it. So
instead of rewarding the outcome,

the ideas those people gave
me, I went down to Starbucks,

I got a bunch of coffee gift cards.
I came back up to the office.

It's an open floor plan.
I walked in and I said,

as loud as I could to one of the people
that had submitted ideas, I said, Hey,

Adam, I want to thank you for submitting
ideas. I haven't looked at 'em.

I don't even know what they are,

but I want to reward you for taking
the time and the effort and the

thoughtfulness to give me your
ideas, handed them a gift card.

Everybody heard it. And guess what
happened by the end of the day,

I had sticky notes from everybody, right?

And I was handing out gift cards.
I needed more all over the place.

But my point is, the mistake that we
make is we wait for the successor,

failure to reward or punish. If we
want to drive innovation in a team,

we need to reward behaviors, not outcomes.

If we reward taking risks,
giving feedback, collaboration,

going outta your way to wow, a customer,
whatever it is that you want to reward,

we'll get more of that. And that
will drive innovation innately.

When we wait for outcome,
you know what it is.

I think of it as Russian roulette,

it's like black or red and you don't
know which one's going to land on.

You could do all the right
things and still fail.

You could do all the right
wrong things and still succeed.

So when we wait for that,
it's like telling our team,

we want them to play Russian roulette
and nobody wants to play that at work.

No it, so it sounds like what you're
saying is you have to be proactive.

If you want to build a team
of high performing innovators,

you have to be proactive as opposed
to reacting to whatever's going on.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Yeah. I, you know what? I think
that's a great, a great lens on it.

I think you need to be proactive and
intentional in building innovation into

your culture. And I'm just going
to add a little bit to that.

I think it has to start
from the human side.

So this kind of goes to the last
mistake I would say is oftentimes,

and this is when our phone starts to ring
too, as clients call us and they say,

all right, I implemented design thinking.

I implemented fill in the blank process
and my people aren't doing it and it's

not working. And you know, is it the
process? Is it the like, is it, you know,

the initiative? Well, first of all,
we all have initiative fatigue.

Nobody wants more initiative,
but second, you know,

you need to take a step back, right?

We need to get the humans on our team
to understand how they innovate and how

they contribute. And if we start
being proactive about how you and I,

and everybody on the team has these
different styles of innovation and

understanding how we can be innovative,

then the culture and the process kind
of naturally fall out from there of what

you should do. It's not
that the process is bad.

It's just that the
people aren't bought in.

And we just did this
whole thing with a team.

I loved it so much instead of a
title and job responsibility map.

And you know how you see like
a hierarchy of a company.

We did a contribution map where we mapped
out how everybody innovates and how

that innovation contributes to the
greater change this company was trying to

make. And I guarantee you, after that,

it was incredible how high performing
and how innovative and some of the

solutions that came out of this team.

It's because we needed to
back up and to say, Hey, look,

the process and the culture will come,
but let's talk about the people first.

I really like that. You
kind of gave everybody, Hey,
everybody, this is the why,

this is why we're here. Yeah.
Let's continue on together.

And this is where your value is. I that's,

that would be really encouraging from
an employee standpoint. I like that.

Well, and imagine for a second,
right, Adam, like let's say,

I just did this with a team.
It was everybody from the,

morning receptionist to the CEO,
the morning receptionist now.

So she came to work and like
loved her job, great person,

but wasn't feeling connected,
but it turns out, guess what?

She's the first person the client
sees when they come into the office.

So she owns the brand to the outside
world and her contributions are how

she innovates on the spot to make those
people who come in the office feel

comfortable and welcome and
living the values of the company.

And she innovates on
the spot all the time.

Because guess where problems go
wrong? Scheduling people are late.

Clients are coming in, right?
Like that is a mess up there,

but she right understands now.

And the VP understands
how their leadership,

how that contributes to the
greater change. And, I think,

especially not just vision, especially
when we're trying to drive change,

we're trying to figure out new paths.

We're trying to carve out a new niche
trust with AI and technology and changing

customer needs and
changing, employee needs.

We gotta understand how we all
contribute and how we all innovate.

So can can being an everyday innovator
help reduce stress and minimize burnout.

Because I know even just talking to
teammates on our team, we're all saying,

we're trying not to burnout.
We're trying to make sure,

especially going from like going
from, all at home to hybrid,

a lot of places are switching to
hybrid and you're trying not to burn,

but yet there seems to be more things
on our to-do list than not on the to-do

list. And I liked how
you just said, you know,

for the receptionist she's innovating
every day as she does her daily tasks and

does those things, and it's seen
at a more practical application.

Yeah. Well that's the
beauty of innovation. Let
me just say this real quick.

And I want to answer your question
about burnout cause it's so important.

The way we define innovation at
launch stream and this kind of,

this is a curated definition that we've
prayed over time working with clients so

that it's something that's accessible
and empowering to everybody is think

differently about what's right in
front of you to create an advantage.

So think differently, right? A new
perspective, create a problem solving on,

the moments, problem solving, about
what's right in front of you, right?

Your job, your resources, your challenges,
your opportunities, what you do,

and then to create an advantage.

And that advantage could be
a better way to do something,

a better client interaction, a new
product in the market, whatever it is.

So that's our definition. I just
want to make sure I say that.

And for those listening, I would
take that definition to your teams.

Cause I guarantee you,

part of the burnout is confusion
of like we need to innovate,

but what does that even mean? So
let me get to burnout real quick.

because I feel you. And I think that the,

I just actually got off a
plane from Indianapolis.

I was with a group of women in
Autocare. So, auto after market,

like everything from Jiffy lube to
kind of manufacturing of tinted.

And one of the things I heard loud and
clear before I got there was we are burnt

out. We're doing more with less,

our everybody's got 10 more todos
on their plate than ever before.

And on top of that, right,
we've got change and innovate.

So not only are we doing more, but
we have to do everything differently,

which takes more energy, right? It takes
more thought process. So let me tell,

give you a few reasons why
innovation helps with that.

And then some really easy tips
like daily tips to implement.

So when we understand how we innovate
and we tap that natural strength,

here's what happens.
We perform at our peak.

We get into that state
of flow more readily,

meaning like good focused
effort and work, right?

We have more innovative solutions.

So we're not banging our
head against the brick wall.

We see more solutions and
opportunities that we missed before.

so when you think about that for a second,
think of it as innovation metabolism,

when you dial it up,
dial up your innovation,

we'll say you spend five minutes in the
morning doing an exercise that gets you

into kind of more of
an innovative mindset.

And everybody has different ones depending
on their styles that will benefit you

all day long. So part of the burnout,

part of what happens from burnout is
we're on a hamster wheel and we can't

figure out how to get off.

So it's just like we're spinning
and spinning and spinning. Right?

And I could see you
nodding on that. Like it,

just is no fun to feel like you're solving
the same problems and over and over

again,

you are just like losing your mind because
your to-do list is now 10 pages long.

Every time one thing comes off
a hundred other things come on.

That's how I feel. But
when we drive innovation,

I like to think of it as swimming
sideways out of a rip tide.

So instead of just swimming
harder and swimming harder,

which is what we're doing right
now, right? We're all doing it.

Innovation helps us swim out of the
rip tide. So having an innovative,

mind's going to help you
figure out a solution.

That's going to solve a lot of
those things on your to list.

It's going to help you manage
your to-do list in a new way.

It's going to help you get more joy
and satisfaction because it taps the

dopamine in your brain.
The feel good chemicals.

So innovation helps us with burnout
because we get off the hamster wheel and

that's part of what's keeping us in,

exhaustion and it helps us figure
out how do we do the things?

How do we drive solutions
that make everything easier?

So let me give you two quick tips
that help with burnout. One is,

and I learned this from the book,
the one thing, and I think it's it.

Keller Williams, the guy that did
Keller Williams, the paint company.

I can't remember which one wrote it.
So I apologize, but the book is great,

but he talks about he,

the way he picked his to-do list was
what's the one thing by doing this makes

all of the things easier
or makes them go away.

What an innovative way to
look at your to-do list.

So I look at it a little differently,
but I love that as a premise, which is,

what's the one thing,

if I solved this would make these other
problems or these other tasks go away.

And if I solve this with some innovation
and create some real breakthrough,

right? These other things get
easier for me and for my team.

So the question I want everybody asking
themselves is what's the one thing if I

solve this makes everything else easier.
Makes upper other problems go away.

I think part of the reason we're
burned out is we're stuck in the weeds.

So we gotta give ourselves
a chance to get up.

I'm going to give you one
other tip. And that is,

I want people to take five to seven
minutes between every task and every

meeting. And here's why, because I
know that sounds like Sacra. Like,

but tomorrow I have so much to do. I
need those five minutes for that email.

I get it. But here's what happens.

The brain needs five to seven
minutes to complete one task,

clear it outta your
brain and go to the next.

But what we do because we're so busy
is we go from task to meeting, to task,

to meeting. And here's what happens
when we don't close out that stuff.

We carry mental residue around.
So by the end of the day,

it is like 10 pounds of
Play-Doh on our heads.

And that is exhausting and leads
to so much burnout. So what I, now,

what my team does all the time is we
always take five to seven minutes of

meditation or movement.
So no Netflix, no emails,

no Instagram like no consuming
stimulus, just five minutes.

Like that's all it takes. But
if you do that between things,

you'll actually be more productive and
more innovative in the things you're

doing. And here's what we do.
Here's our role ready for this?

This is the easiest
one. If you're a leader,

every meeting ends at 20 after
or 50 after, no matter what,

because you feel the time you have,
we don't need those extra 10 minutes.

You need them to get that mental residue
away and to avoid burnout and keep your

energy up. I don't need them.

I'm not going to get more out
of you in those 10 minutes.

So get it done and then give people
the time. Those are my tips. .

I love it. You're talking
to a serial multitasker. My,

colleagues are always like, yeah, Adam's
probably already sent you the email.

Like I'm always multitasking during
meetings and I am a huge habitual.

Like I go from one thing to another
thing and I love that idea of stopping

and letting your brain
rest for a moment. Yeah.

Just five minutes. And even if you in
about five minutes, like take a breath.

Right? I mean it's but, here's the thing.
Do you find Adam? Cause I know I do.

By the end of the,

if I go from task to task meeting
to meeting with like no break,

like there's a little bit of a voice in
the back of my head about the meeting I

had three hours ago. That's still
there and that email oh yeah.

Is still in my head. Like even
if I've completed the task,

it just hasn't left me. Right.

It's just in my brain swirling
around taking up space.

So by the time I get to my two o'clock
meeting, I've got 10% to give that's it.

So, you know, we always say like,

you have to slow down to speed up
and you know, to avoid burnout,

like have people do less. That all sounds
good. But the reality is that's not,

that's, that's not something
a lot of us can implement.

So instead just allow people time to
just turn off for a second and then

turn it back on.

But that turnoff moment will make
a huge difference in how you feel.

So as we kind of, wrap
up the conversation,

this has been a wonderful
conversation. I was,

as you were talking about swimming out
of the stream, as this is going upstream,

it's kind of moving
out of the stream. What

I kind of saw was like to be a better
innovator, to be a good innovator.

You have to kind of change your
perspective or you have to change your

perspective and broaden it because
that's the only way you can see it.

Because even with the grass
you're sitting among the weeds,

it made me think of
honey. I shrunk the kids,

the little kids were down there and
they saw the aunt as this massive thing.

And the parents were almost stepping
on them because they were so, but big.

But until you change your perspective,

you can't understand what
somebody's going through.

You can't understand what it's
like and all and everything else.

And so you have to change
the perspective to get a new,

a new look on what you need to do
to be, to become that innovator.

Yes, I a hundred percent agree.
I love how you said that.

And I'd say there there's two things
that I would encourage people to do to

really become an innovator.

So obviously take the assessment cuz
then you'll know how you innovate.

There's all these different styles,
but there's two things I would say,

change your perspective and
deepen your perspective.

And here's what I mean by that change
is exactly what you just said. Like,

look at it from the perspective of that
ant is huge instead of small, right?

Look at it from a different angle.
If you're in this seat at your job,

look at it from your leader's
perspective, your team's perspective,

the client's perspective,

the competitor's perspective is one of
my favorites find a different perspective

to look at it, ask disruptive
questions that get you to new places.

And what I mean by deepen
is, we have a 10 day,

especially when we are
constantly stressed out,

because we're constantly in fight
,flight or freeze, right? We're just,

we're stressed out. So
we stay on the surface.

We stay in our primal brain and
in order to find more innovation,

we need to get past the primal
and get it to our higher function.

So we need to go deeper.

So there's three words that we don't
have time to go into the whole story,

but let me just tell you this.

I was presenting someone asked me a
challenge question. I was panicked.

I needed to like get my feedback under
me. So I said to the person, well,

that's an interesting question. Tell me
more. And in saying those three words,

tell me more. That person told
me about their past experience,

why they were asking this
question, why they were skeptical,

what they were hoping to get out of it,

all the things they didn't
ask or I didn't ask.

And they didn't say we often
jumped to solution too soon.

So the next time someone presents an idea,

asks you a question that you don't know
the, oh, even if you know the answer to,

in fact, especially when you know the
answer, I want you to stop and just go,

oh, that's interesting. Tell me more.

And you'll find so much innovation in
that depth of conversation that we're not

getting. When we stay on the surface.

This has been Count Me In IMA's podcast,

providing you with the latest
perspectives of thought leaders from the

accounting and finance
profession. If you like,

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