Welcome back to Count Me In.

IMA's podcast about all things affecting
the accounting and finance world.

I'm your host, Mitch Roshong,

and you are listening to episode
number 177 of our series.

Today's conversation
features Dr. Anton Lewis,

an associate professor of
accounting at Valparaiso University,

whose research investigates the
experience of black accountants in the

profession and promotes
equitable racial representation.

In his conversation with my co-host Adam,

Dr. Lewis talks about DE&I in accounting,

common flaws relating to diversity
equity and inclusion in the workplace,

as well as what can be done and what he
is already doing to advance and improve

equitable representation
across the industry.

Keep listening as we head
over to the conversation now.

So Anton, historically conversation
about race and the workplace,

particularly within accounting
simply have not happened. Now,

there have been great
achievements in DE&I,

but there's still much room for
improvement in our industry.

Why do you think that is?

Adam, If I had to really
give you an answer to that,

I actually think it is because we

in society and in particular
US society have a great

deal of problems talking
about the subject of race

and racial representation.

It's almost a taboo subject in many ways.

So the problem is we know we have
poor representation currently.

We know we've historically
had poor representation,

but nobody really wants to talk
about why that is because race

and racism are sticky,

unpleasant subjects to talk about.

And part of what seems to
be my life's cause now is

a core trying to provoke a
conversation around this area,

which is not polarizing, which is
almost impossible to do by definition.

But to my mind,

if we can't have a conversation about

race, racism,

why we have poor black representation
in our accounting profession and have

had historically, and, you know,

if we can't have this conversation and
it be at two polar opposite ends to this,

but yet still respect each
other, each one another's views,

we will not actually significantly change

the situation. We will not deal with
this problem effectively. And to my mind,

that has kind of been the
status quo for quite some time.

Yeah, that makes sense. I
think I've seen that as well,

but as we specifically like
focus in on accounting,

as you kind of did there at the end,

you are often the only person of color
in a predominantly white workplace day in

and day out, you know,

how have you handled that and what have
you done to advance the way that is

perceived or how you feel about it?

It's tricky, isn't it? There are

those critical theorists,

critical race theorists
among others who talk about

this environmental microaggression
that occurs being the

only black person in an accounting
organization or any other

organization that when you step foot in
the building of which you work and you

are one of the three people out of
500 that work there without anybody

saying anything without

anybody saying you don't belong,

you feel it in the very walls
of the institution you're in,

and it can be a quite effective way
of pushing those of difference out of

the doors in terms of how one
deals with that. It's difficult.

the entire reason why I
look at the area of race

and racism and where I'm originally from,

from Britain as you may hear in
my accent when I was a jobing

accountant, so to speak, that
would happen to me all the time.

And it's the reason that I began
to look at this subject topic,

cause I always wanted to know,
well, why am I the only one there?

And as I was experiencing this,

I really wanted to have other
people of color, other black people,

other black professionals, ironically,
to talk about this, to say,

I'm not going mad. Am I, are
you having this feeling as well?

And the truth of the matter if they just
weren't there and it becomes a circular

problem, right? What am I
doing to try to change this?

Because I'm an accounting professor.

One of the things I try to do is encourage
now I'm here in the United States,

as many African Americans as
many black accountants as I

can into profession with more numbers,

it kind of gets rid of that
feeling of being alone.

But unfortunately it's still
a very difficult process.

Another thing that I've tried
to do is write more publicly in

things like the CPA journal. I've tried
to increase my social media presence.

I've tried to reach out
with my own podcast,

Counting Black and White Beans
as an idea to be able to be used

as a resource to allow those
black accountants who feel

isolated, who are feeling
a little bit lost,

let them know that this is not unusual,
that this is actually quite common,

whether it's in the United
Kingdom or the United States,

and for them to have a feeling of kinship,

of a kindred kind of

effect for one of a better
word kind of saying you're in,

we're in this together. And
so I'm afraid to say, Adam,

if you're looking for an absolute definite
answer as to how does one deal with

the isolation often of being one
of the few black people within an

accounting environment, I can't
give you any firm answers to that.

I suspect it's as difficult
to deal with today.

As I found it decades ago.

I'd imagine it is, it's not easy being
underrepresented in any profession.

But for the black accountant,

there has to be various
stereotypes that are there tales.

Can you explain how or why these
stereotypes exist and what impact that

misinformation has?

Yeah. And again,

these stereotypes exist in
our profession and other

professions as well.
Because we, in my opinion,

and many others live in a racialized
environment, you know, we,

our racialized views of
those who are different

from ourselves,

don't stop at the doors of
the organizations that we

work in.

Some of the traditional stereotypes
that black accountants often

have to deal with that I've found
in my research and many other's

is one would be of being angry.

If you are a black male accountant,
and I should be clear here,

there are different stereotypes
often for black women

accountants and black male accountants.
So for black male accountants,

anger is often an issue. So, you know,

if one is out on an audit and you find

something has come up and you're in the
middle of a meeting with your team to

try to address this issue and
tempers become a little bit frayed.

If you are the black accountant,

you understand clearly that you
cannot be passionate like your white

colleagues,

because that is seen as being
angry and unprofessional and

unbecoming, that latitude
is not afforded to you.

And of course it makes it difficult
in terms of impression management.

Once we come around and look
at performance evaluations
and it may come up that

you are unprofessional, angry,
you scare inverted clients.

On the polar opposite,

perhaps would be the experience
that many black women professionals

have of being seen as the Sapphire,

this steely hard unemotional unempathetic

professional that is cold
sometimes also can be

angry in that negative way.

But the idea here is that
she is not a team player.

She is overbearing she's quintessentially,
anti feminine or unfeminine,

if you like in this setting
and be it with just these two

examples of stereotypes that you
mentioned that are often prevalent to the

black accounting or black
professional experience,

whether it's being too angry,

if you are a black male accountant
or being positioned as Sapphire as

a black woman accountant,

both positionalities
for wont of better word,

mean that you are othered and
you are positioned outside

the professional, the remit of being
seen as completely professional.

What I mean by of that is you're
always on the outside, looking in,

you can never truly embody
that authentic accountant,

that trusted accountant,

and that's actually quite
vital for the work that we do.

Definitely. And, those,

just those two examples that you used
are not isolated to just accountants.

I've seen those in any
other profession as well.

Just how people view folks
of color in that way.

And that kind of brings
us in our conversation.

I wanted to circle back to something you
mentioned earlier was microaggressions.

You know, we often hear that term,

but I'm not sure everyone truly
understands what that means.

And to what extent they can have an
effect on people in the workplace.

So maybe you can share your
thoughts on that with us.

Yes. microaggressions, one of these
many terms that's kind of banded around,

but people don't give you a concise
definition of really what they

are. Essentially,

microaggressions are racialized.
Racial, like aggressions are,

are flights often verbal,
sometimes environmental,

as I've highlighted that say that you
are not welcome, you are not wanted,

you are othered to give you the best
example of what a microaggression

would be like. Imagine Adam,

that you went into your account workplace,

and as you sat down, had your
coffee opened up one of the letters,

one of the many letters that
you had, you've got a paper cut.

Now we've all experienced paper
cuts, right? Sharp, painful,

awful annoying. It's not
going to kill you, right?

You're not gonna bleed to death,
so to speak, but it's annoying.

But imagine if you had
50 paper cuts a day,

every day that you went into
your workplace day after day,

week after week, month after
month, year after year, eventually

you get almost a part of
you dies by a thousand paper

cuts. If you like, at least that
professional part, that professional self,

and it can be incredibly harmful to one's

psychological makeup.

It can be incredibly harmful to
one's ability to function in the

workplace. It is continual
and unremitting othering.

If you like, and it's
a genuine problematic,

it can be micro thoughts as we might term

them where,

and forgive me on some of my definitions
here where we might think that

we are not welcome in the

workplace because essentially
we don't belong. I.E.,

black people don't belong in accounting.

That might be inferred in
a very subtle kind of way.

It may be as I once
witnessed with not so much

black accountant in Britain,

but south Asian Muslim accountant
back in the United Kingdom where

I had interviewed a
respondent and he cited that

he was offered bacon sandwiches regularly.

And if you are of Muslim heritage,

that you cannot do that.
And it was kind of known.

It's not a direct physical attack,
but it's incredibly deeply offensive.

And it's these kind of
actions that cumulative,

that relate to something term battle
fatigue, where it just becomes too much,

you become depressed. There are
physiological effects that can happen,

including extraordinarily
high stress levels which

can lead to high blood pressure,
et cetera, et cetera. And you know,

when we're talking about these
microaggressions as well, and, you know,

we should not forget about this concept
that you've alluded to Adam about

intersectionality. So some of this, again,

speaks to not just being a black
person in that environment,

but whether you are a black woman in
this environment and that gendered piece

should this black woman go into the

workplace and her hair is for example,

now braided, it is seen as unprofessional.

And in that unprofessional environment,

you may not be recognized as working
there. There have been reports of this.

it may, you may have the typical side eye.

People may not want you in front of
the clients because you don't look

professional enough.

As women will understand if
one's hemline on any given

day where when a skirt
is, is worn, is too short,

one gets judged upon this,

this idea that there is a controlling
factor in femininity in general,

but specifically on certain
aspects of black femininity.

And when we're talking about hairstyles,

the same thing then crosses over equally
to African American men who may decide

to wear their hair in
dreadlocks. And that, again,

positions them as being
unprofessional. Although to be fair,

there should be a right for
people to hold their own

style,

their own way of being their department
that is actually true to their own

culture. And that actually
speaks to something else,
which is quite interesting.

If we see these variances in what
is acceptable and not acceptable,

then the environment
that we work in, Adam,

within accounting has a
set of unwritten rules.

These rules are about what is professional
and what is considered professional

is what is considered both pale and male.

And that's really important because if
you are not male and you're not pale and

arguably middle class,

then you are always going to swim
against the tide of your success in that

environment.

When you don't look like
that, typical professional,

like you were just talking
about it others you, right.

How can we make steps to go forward
to change that perception of

what a professional looks like?

It seems like a broader conversation
and something you can't just flip the

switch and say, this is how you do it,

but what steps can we take to changing
that perception of what a professional

person looks like? No matter
what the color of their skin is.

That is a really difficult question, Adam.

I always say the simplest
questions are the most difficult

ones to answer. And this is

true here for us not to other,

we must reticulate truthfully what we
consider an accounting professional

to be. And if we're honest, think
about how we, how we term accountants.

When we joke about them, we
call them bean counters. Right?

If you imagine in your mind's
eye, Adam, what a bean counter is.

I would say bean counter to
me is possibly a middle aged

white man, possibly be
speckled. Right? Okay.

Gray hair with a calculator,
furiously tapping away,

possibly doing some taxes. Yeah.

And this is important because that
mental image that I have is to me,

the authentic accountant,

that is the accountant
that I trust with my money.

I don't want an interesting accountant.

Somebody who looks like they go and
party or looking after my money,

but all jesting and joking side,

if you are not that
archetype of an accountant,

then you must be something
else you must be other

than what I expect. And that
othering piece has to be removed.

Because even though I talk
about this othering of black

male and female accountants,

we must have also talk about the
othering of our Latinx community,

the othering of our LGBTQ+ community,

the othering of women in
general those who are less able

bodied than ourselves in terms
of othering, that othering piece

is a tricky thing to deal with. That's
what we've really got to co overcome.

And so, for example,

even how we approach dealing
with this othering concept

must be well thought out.

So if we somehow magically
manage not to other

black women and black male accountants,

are we leaving our Latinx
brothers and sisters out?

Are we leaving our LGBTQ plus
brothers and sisters out?

Are we leaving those colleagues
who are less able bodied out?

Are we leaving other stigmatized
groups out? If we are going to do this,

we must. The analogy I like to use here,

Adam is we must raise all ships.

We must have a tide of equity
and equality if you like that

raises all ships at the same time,

which is why I always force through
this idea of intersectionality.

When we look at dealing with this
devilishly tricky concept of othering,

and I'll be perfectly truthful here,

Adam you are asking me for
solutions that I don't have.

I don't know how to do that, Adam.
I really don't know how we do that.

I only know I think one thing
that as we deal with this sticky

problem of othering,
we must do it together.

We must everybody,

everybody must join in this conversation,

which is why I advocate for the
idea of conversation, of dialogue,

of not being fearful. Yeah. That
stops us dead in our tracks.

When we can't talk about
this issue of othering and

say to ourselves, well, let's
try this. Let's try that.

Let's try this in a manner that
says we work together and not work

against one another. If that helps.

It does, it really does.

And I think the idea of conversation
is a great way to start dialogue.

People need to talk in not
attack or condemn or assume,

but actually just have that conversation
cuz until you have the conversations

and start the dialogue, sometimes your
eyes aren't open until you start talking.

Without a shadow of a doubt,
Adam, you know, and again,

it would seem that we've lost the
art to talk and to talk in a manner

that does not malign the person
we're talking to that doesn't

reduce the the other person's
sense of, of self worth or being.

We really have to have great. We need
to do better in that. You know, we are,

unfortunately, and it's not just the
United States here in my homeland,

the United Kingdom, it's just as bad
and in our areas across Europe as well.

And in other places, we
are entrenched in this,

position of polarization, of partisanship.

It's getting us nowhere. And
certainly it, when we do that,

we remove the tools of which to
deal with very difficult problems.

And that in of itself is something
we're going to have to deal with.

But actually as a matter of point Adam,

I actually think our
profession in accounting is
really well suited in what we

do to begin to make inroads to that
very point. Why would I say that?

In accounting, we are all about teamwork.

We are all about dealing with
difficult intractable problems that

seemingly often don't
seem to have a solution,

but we come up with them all the time.

And not only that we are in the
business of relaying that information

out there. I actually believe
that accountants in this area,

if we really set our mind
to it with our skill sets,

we can actually do something
quite special, but we can't do it.

If we can't talk about it, we can't do it.

If we are polarized and partisan
and we can't do it if we don't admit

where we are and what
we need to do about it,

going forward about this
racialized space within accounting.

This has been Count Me In IMA's
podcast providing you with the latest

perspectives of thought leaders from
the accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard,

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