Welcome back to Count Me In IMA's
podcast about all things affecting the

accounting and finance world. Today,

we have a special conversation for you
as we hosted a mini panel of speakers in

honor, of International Women's Day.

International Women's Day is a global
holiday celebrated annually on March 8th

to commemorate the cultural, political,

and socioeconomic achievements of
women for IMA and our management,

accounting listeners, Margaret Michaels,

IMA's Manager of Brand Content and
Storytelling speaks with two women about

their work in the area of
sustainability. Marty McBrien and,

and Bridget Degraph join Margaret here on,

Count Me In to talk about the unique
role women are playing in sustainability

and the pipeline of future female
finance leaders in this space.

To celebrate this important
day and valuable topic,

keep listening as we head over
to the panel conversation now.

It is such an honor to be
facilitating this discussion today.

I have a strong interest
in sustainability,

and I know other Count Me
In listeners do as well.

I want to structure this discussion
around proof points about women in

sustainability, which have
been substantiated by research.

And I want to hear each of your
reactions to the statements and their

implications for women's
work in sustainability.

So the first proof point women
are playing an outsized role

in sustainability work.

According to a 2021 wine group study,

women went from holding
28% of chief sustainability

officer positions in 2011 to

54% in 2021,

which is a 94% increase.

So let's start with you,
Marty, in your role,

you've connected with so many
professionals in this space.

Would you share your observations on
working with women leaders in this area?

Does it surprise you that
women are playing this
outsized role and what might be

responsible for the dramatic increase in
their participation and in the work of

sustainability?

Thanks Margaret. And, thank you, IMA it's
a real pleasure to be here on what is,

you know, such an important day
to celebrate, you know, the,

really amazing community of
women that have played such

important roles in leadership both now
and in the future and sustainability

across the world. You know,
I'm really, privileged to be ,

part of such an amazing space. And,

and I guess if it doesn't surprise me
the statistics that you have, I've,

been lucky enough actually,

to emulate the success of a series
of amazing female leaders before me.

I always say I'm so privileged that I've
just had really fabulous female boss,

female leader, female mentor in this
space across my 20 plus year career,

that I've just been able to, you know,
grow and thrive and build off them.

And so, you know, I'm going to
be forever grateful for that.

but also if you think more broadly
beyond me, you have, you know,

sustainability women are the
ones out there that are taking

active steps to educate them themselves
on issues linked to sustainability,

whether that be within the home,
in their broader community,

in their lifestyles. And so
as they learn more and more,

they're actually looking for
roles that reflect their,

and I think that's what
we're starting to see today.

I is women taking on roles and
wanting to jump into roles that you

are increasing. You know,

there's never been a bigger demand
for roles in sustainability ever, and,

and women more and more
aligning their values.

We can cut onto more of that later
and stepping into that space.

And if we think about my voluntary
career, so not my professional career,

but what would I do in my free time.
And, I do a lot of work with, you know,

small charities that focus on livelihoods
and empowerment work for women. And,

and it's those women in these developing
countries that are being affected by

climate and sustainability
issues the most.

And they're the ones that are then taking
action and wanting to do more. And so,

you know, that's the space, I think,

where we can all do a bit more
maybe to help, help give those,

those ladies that are really trying to
take action, which will have, you know,

significant impacts on our
future. You know, I think there's,

various different ways to take these
statistics, but I think, you know,

it's all encouraging and it's all
the right to action of travel.

Bridget, do you have any thoughts on,

women's outside role in sustainability?

Well, I think I mostly agree with
what Marty just said and, it's,

it's quite funny. I hadn't heard
about these numbers before, but,

when I started thinking now about the
research I've done within companies on

sustainability and integrated, and
also about the taskers actually, a

sustainable business management task
forces. And if I'm thinking about that,

I think we are really very
much, I think either about 50,

50% male female, or even with the leaders,

the sustainability officers and the
leaders I spoke within those companies.

I think we, a majority
were us indeed female,

andI never really realized
that actually until now.

And I start thinking about it. and I,

agree that there's probably
not necessarily just one
reason who might explain

this dramatic increase. however, what I
can imagine is that as Marty just said,

there are just so many roles now available
within sustainability it's within

that sense,it's not a new field,

but it's a field where more and more
roles are being created. And I think,

as what I saw also in those companies
is that sometimes women just tend

to set up,

step up and create a role in the way
they think that is necessary in their

organization. So they just start,
you know, breaking down those silos,

their themselves, that's what I've seen,

those new roles they are available
there. you just need to make it.

And I think women especially are very
well aware of how they can create a role

and also how they can build in
certain flexibility on what their re

sponsibilities are, what they do, and
don't necessarily stick into one silo,

but make sure that you create these
connections throughout your organization.

so i think that might be,

one of the reasons why you see more
and more women in sustainability,

just because they are stepping
up and taking this chance.

And also on the other hand, I mean,

if you're looking at define as an
accounting profession, if you compare 10,

20 years ago, until now,

there are just so many more
women available in the pool of

accounting profession, professionals
to pick up this role. So,

it may also be just a
natural growth of women in

leader positions, nowadays. Yeah.

That makes sense. And I think both of you,

speak to sustainability
and women's values and

interest in the home in family and
society as contributing factors. And I,

I think that's very relevant.
So the next, proof point,

if you will, that I wanted to bring
up, had to do with a finding from,

McKinsey's 20,

21 women in the workplace
study and not surprisingly

in the year of COVID,

McKinsey has said women faced
special related to work life balance,

but they also found that women's
commitment to sustainability,

especially in the arena of D&I

remained unwavering.

The report stated women are
rising to the moment as stronger

leaders and taking on the
extra work that comes with D& I

compared with men at the same level,

women are doing more to
support their teams and advance

diversity equity and inclusion efforts.
So let's start with you Bridget.

What are your thoughts on this
statement and McKinsey's finding?

Well, I'm

not sure whether I'm very much
surprised about these findings.

I can imagine that women having faced
for a long time that maybe sometimes they

just had to do the extra
step in order to get to a

certain place. They naturally
might feel committed to a D& I,

efforts basically. So I can't quite
imagine that they know that's,

how hard it can be, what hurdles you can,

come across. And that therefore just
it's, well, it's not in their nature,

but it's sort of the way
they, might feel like, well,

we know that this is important
and we cannot stop it,

especially not in these times,
especially not in the past year.

For example, I also think that, well,

they know what they know what it means,

so they know what perhaps
you might need if you,

if you want to keep a healthy
work life balance. If,

you're learning your career,
with personal wishes as well,

besides your career that maybe they
know what flexibility is required

and they are much, well,
maybe a little bit more,

willing to accommodate that as well.

So I think for the diversity
equity and inclusion efforts that,

I'm not very much surprised
about the fact, that's,

they are continuing on that
even in this year. Yeah.

And Marty, what are your thoughts on that?

I mean, I think this is something all
leaders have to get better at, right?

This is something that all of us have
to keep challenging ourselves to evolve

and get better at and think more
widely. And, although as a, you know,

a working mom that, that does the, you
know, the sort of crazy juggle and as,

you know, blaze my trail.

I would say that we all
need to get better at this.

And I rely on all my team, all of those
around me to continue to challenge,

to continue to inspire me and
others to do better in, you know,

even everything from, you
know, when we plan events to,

providing everything from translation,

making sure what I do is accessible to
everyone around the world in a way they

can access it. You know, it's
not just me and my, you know,

my little team and making sure,

but it's diversity of thought and opinion
that we're seeking on everything we do

as well as gender,

as well as making sure we're available
in different times to talk to people,

making things available so that I can,

upskill other parts of the
world in what I'm doing.

I'm just really privileged to have led
a team for the last 10 years that have

challenged me consistently on
doing better on D&I issues.

And I think overall, that's
just made me a better person,

as well and allowed me to, and
to help others think about those,

those issues as well.

So I think this is a real team area and,

personal area that I think we
can, we can do better on it.

And then always continually
learning and evolving. You know,

there's no one fixed answer to this.

That's very encouraging to hear.
And especially in IMA, diversity,

equity and inclusion is a
priority for our organization.

And it's good to hear that it's
also high on the priority list

at others as well.

Margaret not to cut in, my staff
would never let me get away with it.

If it wasn't like culture is so
important, the culture that we have,

the culture, I mean, I could
emulate the perfect that culture,

but to be the staff saying, Marty, like,
come on let's we need to do better.

And that challenge just makes
me want to do better. Right.

And that's from men and women, you know,
of all ages and that's, that's cool.

That's where this, that's
where this needs to be.

I agree. And also, maybe
people don't know D&I

is, under the umbrella of
sustainability, but, you know, it,

as I get more educated
about sustainability myself,

I see how it's a natural
fit. So, you know, I've,

I've welcomed greater discussion
about how de and I is a

contributing factor in that.

Yeah, well basically,

if you are a sustainable organization
moving more and more towards,

towards a sustainable business model,

part of that sustainable business
model is that you recognize diversity,

equity and inclusion that
you just can't do it on your,

on your own in just not your own way.

You need to have this
diversity of thought,

you need to have this broader mindset.
You need to think outside the box,

especially if you're gonna move towards
a real sustainable business model,

real sustainable business management.

You're just not gonna cut
it with one way of few.

So you really need that diversity in
your team, and you really need that.

That's, well,

others are challenging you in a way in
order to make sure that you are going to

achieve those goals that
you set for yourself.

So it is an essential part
of sustainability to have

diversity equity and inclusion in your
team and in your whole organization.

And it's not a tick box exercise, right?

This is not one of those ones that
you just tick the box and you move on.

No, it's something you
really have to work on,

but you really have to live it as well.

It's not something you can just align
with and, and, and hire someone,

that you think, well, that's
creates diversity. No,

you really have to live and breathe
through this and really probably need to

make changes to your, the way
work, in order to make this happen.

Absolutely diversity equity
inclusion, as you both mentioned,

encompasses gender, but it
encompasses race. It encompasses age,

it can encompass a whole
variety of factors.

but another proof point I
wanted to take a look at was,

the link between gender and
sustainability engagement,

which is kind of the thesis
of this whole podcast.

there have been researchers
who studied the link between

gender and sustainability engagement
with their results published in the

October,

2021 issue of the journal of
management and governance,

which is a peer reviewed journal.

They found that the presence
of women in top echelon

positions is associated with greater
engagement in social and environmental

projects,

and their presence also
positively influences the mental

and social performance and increases
the level quality and transparency

of sustainability
disclosure and furthermore,

the presence of women in top
echelon positions and the

implementation of sustainability
activities improve both the firm

financial performance and value.

So I just kinda wanna dissect,

that finding because
it's pretty impactful.

There are clear indications
that when an organization

focuses on sustainability,

they see improvement in
their financial performance

and value. So it's not
just some intangible,

goal it's very tangible
and what they can achieve

can be measured and will speak to
investors and other people that,

are stakeholders in the organization.

So I just wanted to get
your thoughts. Marty,

we can start with you.

Does it surprise you that there are
tangible links between sustainability and

improved financial performance and value?

Not at all here. I mean, no surprises
at all. Mark. Great. you mean,

we've talked about it a little
bit already, but diversity for,

or an approach just adds to the
conversation at the top. and, it

allows you to challenge, allow it to
create more like inclusive conversations.

It creates more resilient
businesses and, and it is just,

companies that are going through and
putting the time and effort and money inv

est, you know,

investment into really doing
high quality sustainability

disclosure, you know, good
sustainability reporting and disclosure,

isn't a cheap exercise, right?

This should have the same
sort of financial resources
around it as you do for

your financial reporting,

the same sort of controls when you go
to that sort of effort and you get that

commitment at, the top, and you've
got that broad diversity of thought.

It's no wonder they're getting
better performance scores,

because they're thinking about this as a
whole in the round and committing to it

properly. And with the, you know,
with that broader, you know,

resilience thinking, you know,
diversity of thought you will,

of course naturally get
better results. It's,

thinking about something differently,
taking something outside the box,

outside a traditional thought process
about how you can evolve something or do

something a bit different that has
better results in the long run for the

business.

Do you agree with that?

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I think,

I think this really relates back to what
we're just discussing about diversity

equity and include, you know, if you
have, diversity of thought in your team,

if you have diversity of thoughts
in your, in your boardroom already,

because that's where it needs to
be. That's where the, in the end,

these strategic decisions are being made.

So you really want to make sure
that there is diversity, in the,

and at the board level. but
really if you create that,

it means that you are as a team, as an
organization, you are much more, willing,

but also much more resilient to
the changes that are the outside,

outside world is giving you basically.

So really there isn't this business case
for sustainability and it's shown in

previous research as well. You know,

the board diversity that it
really does create value,

not only non-financial value,
but also financial value. And I,

I don't really like the separation
between non-financial and financial,

because I think it's,
it's absolutely tightly,

not tightly not to gather
financial non-financial value.

but that's, that's, that's where,
where the, the real value creation is,

and that's where it comes from a diverse
team. So with women on top, and not,

not just women, just a real diverse,

team that you need to have to make
these decisions, they are, well,

I think the force behind
creating value in general,

for yourself as a company,
as well as for society.

And that's what this whole
sustainability premise is about.

That it's not something which,

is for just for the outside world.
It's not just about a reporting part.

It's not just about, about showing
how well you're doing to others. Now,

it's really integrating this in your,
organization, integrating it in your,

this making, integrating it in
the fibers of your organization.

Meaning that you're actually, like
I said before, living through this,

but that is what creates value
for now, but also in the future.

Absolutely. So finally,

we've talked about a lot of different
things I wanted to touch on the future of

female lead and sustainability,

especially their involvement in
sustainable business management,

which is so closely tied to
strong accounting and finance

knowledge. Deloitte,

in collaboration with the network of
executive women has closely studied

gen Z.

Those born between 1995 and 2012,

who make up 24% of the
us population and found

that when it comes to choosing employers,

77% of gen Z respondents say that
it is important that they work in an

organization whose values
align with their own.

And these values include working for
companies that place an emphasis on making

a positive impact on society.

So as companies look
at this future pipeline

of workers,

how important is it that they
adopt sustainability as an

integral part of how they're operating
and make sure that it's part of their

companywide mission and values,
bridge. Do you wanna start as a,

I am a global taskforce member with
people who are representative of gen Z.

You, you probably know very
well, where their priorities lie,

choosing their employers.

They, well, it's a fair point.

It's becoming more and more important
for this generation in need that they are

working, that they are
adding value to society,

that they feel like they're doing giving
something back to the community that is

not just about creating shareholder
value, but creating broader value,

in that sense. however,

I do not really think that companies who
haven't made those steps yet that they

are missing out in a way or
that they, they, they are,

I think they can turn it around really
quickly. So if you want to speak towards,

this, this workforce, of,

gen sets, I think, there are still
lots of opportunities. I can imagine.

There has been so much has happened
in the field of sustainable business

management in the past, years,

that you can learn so much from other
organizations around you who have changed

the way they work, who have
changed their business model,

who have changed the way they
see or look at value creation.

And I think Gen Z, for example,
is, a generation who might see it,

even though they want to work as an
organization who has these values,

they might also see it as a challenge
to bring it to an organization to get

those values. there's a great challenge
there, but there's so much to,

I think you can really turn this
around real quickly as an organization.

Marty,

what do you think you think companies
can ramp up sustainability efforts and,

and meet these demands of our, of our
future leaders and pipeline of talent?

Yeah, I think they're gonna
have to, to be honest,

I think if they're not there yet,

they haven't got long there to
get there because, you know,

post pandemic more and more employees
are acting with their fee, right.

They're aligning much more with their
personal values and wanting to go and find

a company that aligns
with their, you know,

a professional versus personal
value alignment as they're,

as they're stepping out the
front door every day. And,

and often that's more and more as we're
seeing in the pandemic more and more

around making more sustainable decisions,

different changes to livelihood
situations, different
balance of work, you know,

buying, you know,

so much has changed in the last two years
of the pandemic that I think employers

don't have very long to be
really ramping up their broadest

sustainability, work program that they
possibly can to engage, not just GenEd,

but you know what, I don't
even know what I am I'm.

So now a days they call me something
between baby boomers and Gen Z should I

say, but, you know,

even I require I've recently started a
new job here at the IRS foundation coming

from CDB. And the first thing I was
like, is there alignment of values?

Am I still going to be purpose driven?
You know, I want a purpose driven job.

Does this organization align with my
values? Yes, it does. But you know,

have to work through all
of these steps nowadays.

And that's a really important part
of me when I get up and I you know,

get out of bed and I go to work.

And I think if you are not aligning
more and more with sustainability,

you just won't get the best talent
and you won't get that inclusion and

diversity of thought, you will
be paying for second rate talent.

And I think what you really
need to be doing is starting to,

move the dial further on
this now and working out how,

how you can align your business more
and more with the broadening and fast

paced sustainability
agenda. And, then, you know,

applying that to your recruitment
and retention strategies as well.

And, and actually, I also think
that, you made a fair point that,,

the good talents or the
talent with a lot of,

of well chances there.

But I really think that there is,
not enough, people focused on,

sustainable business management as in,

there is a whole world of opportunities
out there in sustainable business

management and talent is scarce in
this field, to get to this real,

point where you are able
to make a difference within
organization and really see

how an organization moves away from this,

traditional view on value creation
and to how can we really be, well,

indeed purpose driven those, people in
the workforce. They are very scarce.

I would, in that sense,
just call upon all those,

women in the fields and all the men as
well, actually, because we need them all,

but really to,

to think about what this could mean
for your own career and to see the

opportunities that are
there, they are plenty.

So just go explore this wonderous world
of sustainable business management,

because we need you.

I, couldn't agree more on that.

There's never been more opportunities
to move in sustainability at ESG,

anywhere in the world than
there are now. I mean,

they've never paid as well either.
Let's be honest, you know, so I think I,

if you are thinking of that, getting
into it career into sustainability,

dream big, I mean,

there's so many opportunities out there
go and hunt for what you want. You know,

I, I wish there were so many out there
when I was getting into it. And, yeah.

And just jump in and have a try. You know,

there's so many different angles
to sustainability as well. There's,

there is moving into sustainable final.

If you're already in accounting
or management, accounting,

there's so many different of ways you
can move into because these streams are

getting closer and closer and
closer together. You know,

we're after business as usual, these
things need to be so, you know,

so closely stacked together
that in five years time,

we don't know the difference, right?
It's just business management,

how we managing the business to create
value in the short, medium and long term.

We don't need to be talking
about sustainability.

It's about wider business management. You
know, jump in, get involved, have fun.

It's fun. It's a fun space. It's
evolving all the time. You know,

there's never a, you know, nothing's
moved ever so fast in my career.

So my life,

even in fact how fast the
sustainability space for employment and

opportunities and just growth and learning
and being part of the change and part

of the solution. I mean,
it's yours for taking.

I, love your optimistic
views on sustainability,

and I'm really glad that you
both are working in this space.

You're clearly making a difference
in champions for sustainability.

This has been Count Me In IMA's podcast,

with the latest perspectives of thought
leaders from the accounting and finance

profession, if you like what you heard,

and you'd like to be counted in for
more relevant accounting and finance

education, visit IMAS
website, www dot Ima,

net.org.