Welcome back to Count Me In,

IMA's podcast about all things affecting
the accounting and finance world.

This is your host Mitch Roshong.

And today you'll be listening
to episode 165 of our series.

A Harvard Business Review study concluded
that more than 357 billion dollars

spent annually on learning and development
did not achieve the desired return on

investment.

It turns out that only one in 10 used
the learn skills and only one in four

believe training actually improved
their performance. So we must ask,

is there a better way
to learn the critical,

personal and business skills we need?
Fortunately, for today's episode,

you will hear from Lynda Kitamura,

a seasoned Chief Financial Officer with
a background that covers multinational

to startup. We will also
hear from David Wray,

the author of the Power of Potential,

and the President of the International
Group of the French CFO network, DF CG.

They spoke with Adam about their view on
what accounting professionals can do to

accelerate the transition to
effective continuous learning.

A skill the World Economic Forum Report
on the future of jobs concludes is

critically important and
will remain so through 2025.

So now let's head over and
listen to the conversation.

So the Harvard Business Review findings
that only 25% of learning attendees,

find that what they learn
improves their performance.

What has been your experience with
traditional learning approaches?

Maybe I'll start that question then. Adam,

it's a great question to really set the
context for the discussion with Lynda

and personally I've long believed that
the traditional methods of learning are

woefully inadequate,

and that's because they use the
same approach in terms of being an

outside-in approach. Let me
explain what I mean by that.

So I've got this philosophy
that says, you know,

an outside-in approach is effectively
when someone comes into a room and they

start talking about their experience,
the way they learn their techniques,

their tools. And that's great for
them. In fact, it's brilliant for them,

but it's not necessarily good for me.

It's not necessarily good for Lynda
or even for you or anybody else.

So what I talk about a lot more
in what I've practiced my entire

career is this idea of the
inside out method of learning.

And basically, let me
give you an example of,

what that inside-out method looks like.

And I'll use public
speaking as an example.

So if you think of the
traditional way of learning,

you would end up going into a classroom,
they would teach you about tone.

They would teach you about pitch. Maybe
they would teach you about what to wear,

how to use media, how to walk around
the stage and things like that.

So all external things,

but what they don't teach you for example
is how do you harness your nerves as

you're about ready to walk on stage and
you're nervous. You've got butterflies.

You're feeling that little bit of
nausea. As you walk on thinking this,

can I even do this? That's
what they need to teach you.

And when you look at experts in this,

they've got a very specific technique
for how they harness that nervousness and

create a really positive
energy for themselves.

That's what I mean by inside
out. So it's taking the things ,

you can't see the skills and
attributes you can't see,

and basically using that
to develop expertise.

And that's what I refer to as the visible
versus the invisible elements of being

skilled at something.

And it helps to put this in context
from the stages of learning.

So if you think about learning from the
standpoint of we've got this unconscious

incompetence, meaning we don't know,
we don't know something, right?

And we all start there every
single one of us at some point.

And it's then recognizing that
we have that gap in knowledge,

and then how do we then move
it from the first phase,

which is not being aware to then the
awareness we're still potentially

incompetent in that context. And
I use that term very loosely,

but at least now we know
we don't know something.

Then we need to move it to
having this conscious competence.

Now we're starting to be aware that
we've got a skill. We're applying it.

We're starting to get fairly good at it.
And ultimately when we move to mastery,

it moves to a level of unconsciousness
again. So then, you know,

you look at experts and they
can be incredibly talented.

And when you speak to them and
say, Hey, how do you do that?

How do you harness your nerves
before you walk on stage?

And the typical answer you get at
first is, I don't know, I just do it.

And it's about how you get below that
to say, Hey, how do you really do it?

Tell me a little bit about what you
go through so that you can start to

understand the techniques
that are basically hidden.

So that's why I feel that the traditional
outside-in approach of learning,

doesn't work.

So the Harvard Business Review finding's
really don't surprise me from that

perspective. What's your take Lynda?

Thanks, David. Certainly would concur ,

with everything that you are saying,
just from my experience, I would say,

to everyone that we wouldn't
discount traditional learning.

I think of it more as a foundation,
but as David, as you said,

you absolutely as an individual or
with your teams need to build on it.

So an analogy think of watching a
cooking show versus going into the

kitchen and cooking. Both important.

But you do not know until you actually
do something or as you say, David,

you practice something or you try it.

You don't uncover what you do
know and what you don't know.

You haven't taken the technical learning.

Maybe it's your accounting designation.

Maybe it's some other expertise and
brought it to top of mind where it's

more inside, it's more intuitive.
So I would say, you know, build on,

on those traditional, if you have
them, because they do serve a purpose,

but David, as you said, then
how do you internalize it?

How do you become self aware?
This is what I do well,

but these are my gaps and then
start doing things and it can be a

class or it can be practice,

or if it can be a volunteer role or
it can be an assignment on a board.

There's ways, different
ways of doing that practice.

So you both raise some
very interesting examples.

And if you could choose one example
to share with the listeners where you

personally had the richest
learning experience,

what would that be and why that
one? Lynda, can we start with you?

Let me think. an example.

I think one of my best examples
for myself was early in my career.

So I was working with a
multinational high tech company and

I was very early mid twenties.

And this company went through its first
acquisition of a workstation company.

And at that time there hadn't
been processes or protocol.
They said, Hey, Lynda,

would you go over to
this company's offices,

other side of the city and just
figure out how to integrate it.

So I had my accounting and business
degrees and I had that piece,

but until I went over and learned,
okay, where is your general ledger?

Where are your systems? What do
you do? And immerse yourself in it,

you don't know what you do and
don't know. About a company,

about the business model, about the
people, as David said, half of it is,

the emotional intelligence and emotional
quotient. And so I think for me,

immersing myself in
that unknown situation,

where I was the only individual and these
other 40 people were not very happy to

have me there,

was my best experience of an
on-hand learning experience.

David, I'm gonna turn it to you now.

So I I agree with Lynda. Adam,

I think it's really challenging
to choose, but one example, right?

Because when you think about your career,

it's rich of examples that
we've had in terms of learning.

But let me give it a go anyway. I think
for me, it was probably to be honest,

when I wrote my book.

Something that first
really seemed so easy,

turned out to be so much more
challenging than I ever expected that it

would. And the learning for me went well
beyond the idea of a 10% new approach,

which I tend to adopt a day to day.

And what I mean by that is I just
do one little thing every day.

So if 10% of my day is a new
learning, a new experience,

meeting a new person, learning about a
new process, as Lynda said, you know,

going in and, seeing something different.
This went well beyond that 10%.

So I was probably at the
90% learning new, which was,

definitely at the deep
end. If I think about, for

example, something that at least
listeners will go through very commonly.

And we all go through as accounting
and finance professionals.

It's one thing to write a report
or to write an accounting paper,

or even frankly, to write articles
that are accounting, business,

or transformation related. That's so
much different than writing a book.

If I think about what
it took to write a book,

I had to think about how do I elaborate
ideas, really, not just superficially,

which you tend to have to do when
the writing format is much shorter.

You tend to go over at a fairly high
level, but when you write a book,

you have to elaborate them
much deeper than that.

And you have to avoid repetition,

which believe me is so much harder
than it sounds because we do

tend to repeat ourselves,
as adults as well.

And then I had to learn how to use humor
appropriately. I love humor personally,

but humor has to be
situationally appropriate, right?

Because it doesn't work in all cultures.
It doesn't work in all contexts.

So having to think about
humor very differently.

And then I had to be able to tell the
story in a really compelling yet relatable

way. Again, all sounds so easy, but when
you actually get into it, you think,

okay, how am I actually going to do this?

So I also learned through
that process, that I need to,

or I had to get comfortable
relying on experts.

People that could do things
that frankly I couldn't do.

And I think that's a big learning in
terms of going through career is knowing

when to lean into the expertise of other
people and accept that it's something

we don't have ourselves.

And I learned that probably the quickest
through the editing process. In fact,

one of the editors I had when
I did the book and by the way,

when we think of editing, I personally
thought of just one editor. No, no,

it doesn't work like that.

There's a structural editor who
helps set the structure of the book.

So it actually makes sense.

Then there's a different kind of editor
that helps with the flow to make sure it

all sounds cohesive and works together.

Then there's a third type of editor
who ends up correcting things like the

spelling mistakes and the grammar,
very different skill sets.

And the best learning I got was from
the structural editor, who frankly,

when she gave me feedback on the book at
first was she said to me, look, David,

you've got a couple of choices.

You can either go with the
format that you've got,

which is effectively talking
about the inside-out model.

And then the second part that I talked
about in the original version of the book

was how to build a business out of it.
Because it's something I had done before,

and that was the approach, I submitted
in and she said, you could do that,

but she said, how about you do this?

How about you keep the first
half of the book, which is great.

And then talk about the second half from
the standpoint of building it into your

own life.

And then talking to people about how they
embed the technique in their own life,

rather than talk about
how to build a business.

And I did that and it turned out to be
a great decision because the book has

done really well and it's relatable.

So I think that was the learning I had
as well as how do you take feedback in

the spirit it's intended because it's
designed ultimately to help us, right?

And if we take it from that standpoint,

we can end up with a much
better product, which I did,

and it can also provide a springboard
in my case for the next book,

which will end up coming
out next year. So for me,

it's all about being open
to learning, open to change,

and really seeing the whole
thing as one big adventure,

no matter how challenging it
looks. To Lynda's point, you know,

whether you walk into an
acquisition or you walk into a book,

it's how do you look at it as look,
this is one big adventure challenge.

Let me take it on.

Now, one thing that I picked up from,
our conversations that we had together,

was that you two have
been working together

for many years and become friends and
maybe I could start with asking what was

one memorable thing that you did learn
from each other working together and how

has it impacted you now?

And David let's put you in the hot
seat since you reported to Lynda.

Oh, thanks Adam. Nothing like being
in the hot seat. So you're right.

In all serious, you know,
I really learned many,

many things from Lynda or perhaps the
most memorable one that I learned was how

to be an empathetic leader.

If I think about the fact that we spend
hours together in meetings, honestly,

sometimes some of those
meetings were quite challenging,

especially when we started
talking about revenue recognition.

And can we recognize
revenue? Why can't we,

and is there a way around that,

or if we think about the country balance
sheet review processes that we went

through,

where sometimes there was an item in
the balance sheet and lots of questions

came out and sometimes those questions
were difficult to work through.

And sometimes the opinions
differed quite a lot as well,

and they could become quite
strong and do so quite quickly.

And it was really helpful to watch
Lynda go through this process and

see her really skillfully maneuver through
different motivations and think about

how to connect with people wherever they
happen to be as opposed to asking them

to connect with her, where she
happened to be. And frankly,

she made it look effortless, right?

In terms of putting yourself in
the shoes of other people and,

and being able to see why they were
coming at something from the way they did.

And she really took the
time to explain, you know,

why she thought a particular approach
was perhaps more helpful or more

important in the context of what we
were doing or perhaps that it was

unimportant, depending on the situation.
And I think it's probably fair to say,

and Lynda might disagree with me,

but I think it's fair to
say that she probably,

didn't realize at the time that she
was actually modeling the inside- out

learning approach, that I ended
up writing about in the book.

So she clearly was an early
pioneer, knowingly or unknowingly,

and really helped me see things I
think through a very different lens.

And she taught me that when we start to
understand those hidden motivations for

doing something and how
we can tap into that,

then frankly we can learn any skill and
perhaps the most valuable of all skills

we can learn just having that mindset.

And that approach is the
skill of learning skills.

And this is something that's
been talked about by many,

including the world economic
forum as well. So in other words,

we're on a path to
continuous lifelong learning.

And I think if there's one thing
I've taken through my career and,

Lynda has been a strong supporter of,

is that lifelong learning
is really important.

And if we remember what I said a little
bit earlier about the hidden attributes

of skill mastery,

when we can embed both those visible
and invisible elements of the

skill that unconscious part of the brain,

then it becomes something
that we just do, right?

It's a little bit like when you drive
your car home and you're not consciously

thinking about the roads
that you're driving down,

you're not consciously thinking about the
trees you're passing or the other cars

on the road, other than
obviously for safety,

you're just doing it because it's
imprinted as part of your brain.

And ultimately you intuitively know
where to go, you know what to do.

So by learning how to
model skills, frankly,

I've ended up becoming
a better leader myself.

And I think Lynda is a big
part of why that's happened.

Wow. Well, thank you, David.

I think that I'll just
sign off the podcast now.

That was lovely. Yeah, kidding aside.

But I do very much appreciate those
thoughts and it is a mutual respect.

And I think, Adam, when you ask,

what have we learned from each other?

I certainly have valued from the
beginning in working with David,

especially in finance and accounting.

It takes a lot of courage
for one to do what we know

is the right thing. And, so,

I've always said to my
finance team, you know,

be prepared to lose your job,

to stand up for the right thing.

Misreporting or misrepresentation of
financials is one of the fundamental

problems and risks out there.

And so having the courage to
know what is correct reporting,

what is correct accounting,

and to stand up for it and you have to
build for yourself before you get into

that situation. And David
does this and I've done this,

and this is why we work well,

that we recognize that you have to know
you're going to stand up for the right

thing before the situation comes up.

You can't decide in the moment what you're
going to do because you get confused.

And, the other is you build resiliency
in your life so that you're not so

dependent on a job that you haven't set
a little bit of savings aside that you,

can get by week to week that
not easy. Like this is not,

I don't say that lightly, but
try and live within your means.

This isn't a financial
podcast, Adam, I promise you,

but it is these kind of
steps to build resiliency,

allow you to be your best and allow
you to make the right decisions.

And I would also say, you know, learning
from David and, seeing what he does,

enthusiasm and risk taking.

Now you can hear the enthusiasm in his
voice and writing the book and just how

much he put into that. So what does
enthusiasm mean? It means being engaged.

It means doing the research.

It means caring about
learning new techniques and

then figuring out how to articulate and
share them with the people around you.

In David's case, writing
a book and risk taking.

But we're all busy and we're all
sometimes afraid of doing more or doing

something that's new and
uncomfortable. Again,

great example in David taking that on
when he already had lots of other things

on his plate. So I would say Adam,
you know, these kinds of things,

you look at your friends that you admire,

look at your colleague that you
admire and, pause. What do I admire?

And then see if you can
embrace it yourself.

So here's a question, a
little outside the box.

What if you're in a situation where you
don't look up to any of your colleagues

inside of your workplace? What,
you know, is that a reason to say,

you know what, maybe I should go
somewhere else where I can grow.

So I'll start with that one. and it's
such an important question. I would say,

yes, Adam. So , if you
are feeling uncomfortable,

pay attention to your gut,

and then you consider,
why am I uncomfortable?

Is it something that can be
addressed and managed? And if so,

how would I go about it?

And what would be the avenue where
I could find someone in the company

who shares my value set
and would be a good, safe,

founding place to address it.

If it is a situation
where it's not addressable

and you've underlying concerns. And I
think it is absolutely appropriate to say,

do I need to remove myself
from this situation?

So those are very fair. And,
we will all come through.

I have gone through my career two or
three conversations where I thought I'm

gonna get fired today, because
I know they're not gonna,

like what I'm going to say.

However, I tried to go into those rather
than just a, no. It was, we can do A,

or we can do B unfortunately
C is off the table.

So let's talk about A
and B and it just took

the conversation. Granted, you pulled
it back a few times to what you can do,

and then as opposed to deliberately
focusing on what you can't,

I would just say the, last, piece of
it, and I'll turn it over to David,

is that in every situation,
even when I was in high school,

I was working in a part-time job
and it was just not a great company.

The processes were bad.

And what I learned was what
will I not do when I am

someday in a position of
influence. You can always learn,

if you can't learn anything else,

what can you take away that you won't
do yourself when you have that chance.

There's always learning.
So David, over to you.

You raised some excellent
points. And I think Adam,

to answer your question really
simply I think if an individual,

a listener is in an organization
or a role where they just

don't see any role models,
I think to be honest,

I think the easiest thing to do is
definitely dust off the resume if it's not

already polished.

And that would be one piece of advice I
would always give - I've given it to my

staff my entire career -
is always be market ready.

And I think this is one chance or one
situation where being market ready is

very helpful. Because if we can't
look to the individuals around us,

in a workplace setting and feel some
sense of pride, relation, connection,

then I think we're not in
the right culture. We're not
in the right environment.

And I think we do need
to look for alternatives.

I think all of the suggestions that
Lynda's made are absolutely spot on.

And I agree with them. I agree, it's
hard sometimes to do the right thing,

to make the tough calls,

because to realize that we're in the
wrong environment means we have to leave.

And that puts us back into a
risk taking position as well.

Potentially we have to, you know,
start all the way at the bottom,

depending on where we are in our careers.
Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.

But all of it is significant change,
and all of it needs to be adopted,

but they're all important
skills to learn, right?

Because the more resilient
we can be in our lives,

whether it's personally or professionally,

the more successful we will end up being.

And the more likely we are to choose
environments and roles that fit for us,

right. We don't feel
compelled. As Lynda said,

I remember taking that first part-time
job at as well as a kid thinking, oh,

I never want to do this when I grow up.

And it was more this idea
of just realizing, okay,

if I want to do something different,
I have to take control of what I do,

and I have to be responsible
for the decisions that I make.

It's not down to anybody else.

So I think ultimately just having that
mindset from a very early age is very

helpful.

Definitely. And you guys have a very rich
experiences in your career, you know,

I think that was a nice
segue to, you know,

what would you offer individuals who are
starting their career or midway through

their career,

or even contemplating a career change to
kind of help them prepare for the next

challenge. And I think we kind of started
that with that last question, but,

Lynda, maybe you can dig
into that a little bit more?

So when,

people look forward and a career change
or a career decision is one of the

biggest things that
people struggle with and,

deliberate on for all
of the right reasons.

So if you're in a role
and let's say, Adam,

you're in a role for five or
six years, and you're thinking,

should I make a change? One role
of them to, ask yourself is,

well, if I spend two
more years in this role,

what will it look like in two years time?

What will I have learned that I haven't
already learned? Maybe there's a lot?

Maybe not much?

What will I have added to my experience

to what will I have practiced?

And if there's a lot of
change or opportunity coming,
then you may say, yeah,

I can see how the next two years will
play out. And at the end of that time,

what I will have had a chance to
try or to experience or to do.

On the other hand, I've had
many people say, you know,

another two years of the same rule,

I really won't have much
more experience than now.

And that's the first good
tip to themselves that it's
time to try something new.

Sometimes the change is forced upon you.
Like through mergers and acquisitions,

and then you're in a new role you
may be asked or you just be given,

and this is your new role. And you're
thinking, do I want to stay in it?

Do I even want this new role?

I had that once through when a major
merger of the company went through and

I was given a lovely title,

but almost all of my staff was
moved to other lines of business.

So I was expected to do the CFO role
without all of the normal tools or

people. And I had to do it through
influence for the most part, apparently,

but ultimately I decided, you know,

can I learn something in this
new role? And can I contribute?

I boiled the situation down to
those two questions. Can I learn?

And can I contribute? If so,

I will give it an another 12 months
and let me see how it unfolds.

So it wasn't an open-ended, it
wasn't decide right now, it was,

if it met those two criteria for me,
can I learn and can I contribute?

I'd be willing to see how it played
out. It actually, I did stay,

it played out beautifully, eventually
moved to an America's and worldwide role.

But in the moment crystallize
your personal question is,

and if you can achieve something in it,
then, it's good to go for. And if not,

then you move to a plan B and look
for something else. And so, and David,

with that, I think I'll
turn it over to you.

It it's interesting as you were
relaying that story, Lynda,

it reminded me of when we worked
together. I was just wondering,

was that about the same
time that I was facing,

or I was being taught to take a global
role where you were losing me as part of

that as well? Because I know we had ,

a conversation about that
because I felt pulled,

between staying with the local team,

which I absolutely loved working with
as opposed to going into a global

organization where the influence
certainly would be more,

but I would have to reestablish
all of the relationships.

So I remember going through that at the
time and you and I talking about it.

So it's good segue.

Yes. That was the time and lots of change
and lots of personal self examination.

And then trying, you never
really know, do you David,

where the company is gonna go?

All you can do is assess and then
do a little bit of a leap of faith.

And if it fits with some of
what you feel you can learn.

Yeah, absolutely. And you are right.

It ended up working out really well
for both of us in very different ways.

And here we are today doing our podcast
together. I'm very much like Lynda,

I'm a forward looking eye. I
really do look ahead as well.

I probably do it slightly
differently from Lynda.

I tend to do a little bit of a
longer term approach. So yes,

I do look a year ahead,

but I also look three to
five years and more ahead as

well,

because some of the changes that we
might want in our life might take quite a

while for them to materialize.

So one of the techniques I use is
actually a very cool technique that was

created by Walt Disney himself.

And he created it for his organization
to help with creative thinking,

forward looking, and just
this idea of dreaming.

And if you think about the organization,

it definitely needed to thrive on
creativity, given what they created,

but effectively his model was morphed to

use in business. And it's
called the Disney strategy.

And it's a three step strategy
basically. And this works,

whether you're talking about
your professional life,

whether you're talking about your personal
life. And it's really saying, well,

whether I'm at the beginning of my
career, the middle of it, or the end,

doesn't really matter because at the
end, you're just going to a new chapter.

It's just a whole new set
of experiences, right?

That still need a plan that still need
an idea and an approach and a roadmap.

So basically the approach
starts like this.

We start by thinking through very
vividly, what is it that we actually want?

You know, can I picture
exactly what I want to achieve,

whether it's where you want to
live, where you want to work,

whether it's have your own
business, work in a company,

it doesn't really matter what it is. It,

as long as you've got some
level of passion for it,

and that you can see very
vividly how it's going to unfold.

So you can imagine it happening and you
can see yourself in different facets of

it. That's what we refer to
as the dream phase, right?

It's the whole creative idea in that place
we don't think about, is it possible?

This doesn't even come into the realm of
thinking everything is possible when we

start talking about dreaming, right?
So we go in with that mindset,

which is great because you can
effectively dream anything.

The second stage that we go through
then is a little bit more into reality,

which is okay, I've got a dream.
Wonderful, but now I need a plan.

I need to actually make it happen.

So then we move into this mindset of
putting together a plan to make the dream

come true. So in that phase,

we're not thinking about
whether the dream is realistic,

whether or not it's achievable.

Of course it's achievable because
now we're just about planning.

So the plan is about achieving
whatever the dream happens to be.

And then when we've gone through the
plan and we think the plan is fairly

robust, we then move into a third mindset,
which is why it's a three step model.

And that third mindset
is all about critiquing.

Now this is when we look at
the plan and this is where as,

accountants will be brilliant at
this. We poke holes in the plan.

We find flaws in the plan and
this we're very, very good at.

So we are not again, trying
to solve the problem.

We're just trying to point out weaknesses,
gaps, or issues that need addressing.

And then effectively there's this back
and forth process we go through where we

change mindsets between planning and
critiquing until we get it to the point

where the critique can't find any more
holes or flaws or risks in it, it says,

okay, the plan is solid.

And then effectively we can end
up then executing on that plan.

And you might say to me, well, have
you actually ever used the plan?

You talk about it, but
have you ever done it?

And the answer is absolutely when I
first started my career. And again,

I didn't realize it was called
the Disney strategy back then.

When I first started my career
and I first looked at this,

I had in my mind a plan around
what I wanted to do with my career.

And I literally said, okay, from
entry job over the next 10 years,

what do I want to achieve?

And I set out a concrete plan for
myself around starting as an individual

contributor, moving up to a team leader,
then a supervisor, then a manager,

then a director, you know, kind of
the traditional path, if you will.

And I narrowed it down to four companies.
That's all I put in my plan now,

in retrospect probably wasn't enough,

but at the time it seemed to work out
quite well because one of the companies on

that plan,

I ended up joining and it's ultimately
where Lynda and I ended up meeting.

And I went after that plan relentlessly,

I used every lever available to me
to make that plan happen and it did.

And ultimately it ended up
leading to a career that's become,

incredibly fulfilling and I've
been able to do, as Lynda said,

lots of other things that have allowed
me to actually tap into a passion,

which I have,

which is speaking and being able to
share things with other people to help

them in their careers. Because funnily
enough, as I get a little bit older,

I find that the more I can help others,

the more fulfilling I find
this experience. So, you know,

when I think about my early career and
you think about, it's all about title,

it's all about money for a lot
of people, not everybody clearly,

but certainly it was for me when I
was young. And then thinking through,

as I got a little bit older
thinking, you know what?

Those things actually don't
matter as much anymore.

What matters to me is that
I feel fulfilled and I
feel a sense of purpose us.

And ultimately, you know, am I living
the kind of life that I want to be?

So what's all that taught
me then at the end?

It's really taught me that ultimately
every experience we go through,

as Lynda said earlier, teaches us
something. The key is to be open,

to listening to what it teaches us,

and making sure that we don't lose
that lesson and that we embody that,

in everything we do after.

I think that's great advice, David.

Being open and willing to
listen to just about anything is

huge for everybody. And so, as we
kind of wrap up our conversation and,

David, you've already talked about how
you like looking into the future. And as,

our listeners know, when we talk to David,

he always likes to finish
about talking about the future.

So what's some parting advice do you
have for our listeners on the skills they

should be thinking about
to future proof themselves?

Because we have an everchanging
industry, you know,

COVID 19 is becoming COVID whatever,

and there's so many different things
happening for everybody in the world.

What should we be doing right now?

What should our listeners be
doing as we look to the future?

It's a great question.
And you're right, Adam,

I really do love finishing on a
forward looking question. So yeah.

What can accounting and
finance professionals do? Well,

there's a few things that we can do,
right? In fact, we have many choices.

I think as Lynda said
a little bit earlier,

it's really embracing a willingness
to take control of our choices,

whether they're personal or professional,
right? Because at the end of the day,

we alone are in control of our
lives. Yes, events happen around us,

but how react to them is
entirely within our control.

What we learn from them is within our
control. So I think if we own things,

we plan for them, we execute them.
And then we savor the successes,

no matter how big or small they are.
That's important again, you know,

Lynda gave me some advice many, many
years ago when I was doing far too much.

And she said to me, one
day she said, David,

do you celebrate these little
things that you go through?

And I sat and I thought about it and
thought, you know what, no, I don't.

I just go on to the next thing.

So I think that's one thing that I've
learned is really important because it

also creates this sense of purpose and
that we are not just going from one fire

to the next.

the other things I would say to our
listeners are really think about learning

from the inside out. So really
think about getting below the skin,

so to speak and adapt our learning,

to be able to leverage our own strengths,

our own preferences and
our own personal style.

What works for me doesn't necessarily
work for everybody else. And that's okay.

But it's about learning from
other people to get different

perspectives,

to then figure out how do we embed and
emulate what we wanna emulate and what

we wanna model. So it's really
learning it from that point of view,

but doing it in our way.

And that's why the inside-out learning
model is so effective because we do

customize it to how we are as individuals.

And I think I would always
say to have fun when learning,

it makes it so much easier to assimilate
learning and to retain it when we're

having fun, when we're laughing about it.

It's amazing when you laugh at a movie,

you can actually recount the movie so
much better than if you watch a very heavy

movie and you think,
oh, I need to, you know,

that was a heavy movie within a day or
so. You'll forget most of the movie,

whereas if it was funny and it
had you rolling around laughing,

you'll remember a lot of the movie,
because again, it's quite relatable.

So I would say, because in truth,

we can't afford to wait
and see what happens.

We've got to start and be much more
assertive in our roles and in our own

learning and development.
And as I mentioned,

it's really about finding
passion and purpose.

And then it doesn't feel like work.

The whole thing feels really
enjoyable and it's great fun.

And you meet great people along the way.

So I would say those are
probably my parting words.

As I look forward to help individuals,
Lynda, what are your thoughts.

On top of that, and I agree with
having fun and learning, every day,

my suggestion to all of
the listeners is invest

in yourself every day, every day.

If you think about, what you
can learn and what you can do,

it all comes from within and the,

and the inside of David that you write
about in the power of potential and you

speak to. Think about it
when you're on the airplane.

Remember when you get on the airplane
and you're giving the advice and you're

buckling up, what do they say? They
say, put your own mask on first,

if you're in an emergency situation.

And that's where the invest in yourself
is one of the best things you can do,

cuz we don't always know the
future. We can look for trends.

We can keep informed.
Here's a really easy one.

When I guest lecture to MBA programs
that I share with them when they,

when we first open a class and I ask them,

what's the headline today in let's say
it's a finance or accounting group like

this, the audience, what's the
headline in the business section?

And a lot of times they'll be spending
thousands and thousands of dollars doing

this degree. And they don't know what
the headline in the newspaper is.

And this is the one easy, easy way
to invest in yourself to spend.

And now you don't have to
subscribe to a print newspaper.

You can listen to a podcast
like Adam's doing with us today.

You can go online and look at digital
information. So there's no cost,

take 10 minutes,

find a headline that
interests you and then say,

how would I explain this to my neighbor?

If I'm down in the lobby
or if I'm speaking to,

you know, my family at dinner
tonight, what are the sound bytes of,

this situation. This is the
company, this is the issue.

This is the impact. And here's what
I think about it. What do you think?

If you can take an idea and invest in
yourself by learning and articulate

it in a few sentences,

you have just given yourself a gift
you've invested in yourself and you are

going to be well equipped. And
Adam, to your question of, you know,

for future proofing ourselves,

I think the best way to future proof
is to stay current. Stay curious.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.
If you like what you heard,

and you'd like to be counted in for
more relevant accounting and finance

education, visit IMA's
website at www.imanet.org.