Welcome back to Count Me In,

IMA's podcast about all things affecting
the accounting and finance world.

This is your host Adam Larson,

and I'm pleased to bring you episode
162 of our series with featured guest,

James Petrossi.

James is the founder of PTNL and
a researcher on human connection.

He joined my co-host Mitch to
talk about individual perspective,

wellbeing and employees feeling fulfilled.

Burnout has been at the forefront of
everyone's mind following the demands of

global work environment.

So James has set out to help leaders
develop organizational consciousness and

recreate wellness for individual purpose.

Keep listening to hear more about
these strategies as we head over to the

conversation now.

So James,

there's been a lot of talk about the
workforce across all industries in recent

times. So, you know,
from your perspective,

I'd like to kick things
off today with asking you,

why are so many employees feeling
unfulfilled and why are they choosing to

resign at this time?

Yeah,

we're definitely facing
a really challenging time
and one extremely unique to

evolutionary history and one to
really embrace, accept and learn from.

And I think there's three main
reasons that employees are feeling

that unfulfillment right now.

The first is really the
inability to cope with change.

We've been going through so many
changes over the past couple years

and living in a state of uncertainty,
especially as it relates to our job.

One when the pandemic first hits,
we're in a state of survival,

anything to keep our job, then
we're adapting to technology,

Zoom calls being out of the
office, changing landscapes,

having kids at home,

then all of a sudden there's a bright
light and it looks like we're going back

to the office and we're
preparing ourselves for that.

But our children aren't necessarily
prepared to go back to school.

So we've been navigating change in so
many different aspects of our life and

our brains rely on habits and
it's through habit formations and

repetitive actions that neuron
chains develop in our brain.

And we start to do things unconsciously.

If you remember the time
when you did commute to work,

when you were either
going there or going home,

you sort of got lost in the commute.

You weren't thinking about how to navigate
to the office or the routine about

stopping to get your coffee. Those
all become unconscious behaviors.

So as we continue to splinter those
neuron chains and try to develop new ones,

it really makes us feel
lonely, disconnected,

searching to find peace.

So that's been a really big
challenge is just navigating change.

Making people feel unfulfilled and just
comfortable in how they're navigating

life holistically.

I think another one is especially
with the millennial generation

and all generations,

but specifically millennials and the
emerging centennials in the workplace.

We were coming out of
the experience economy,

really at the pinnacle of the experience
economy and inside the experience

economy or concerts, activations,

all of these Instagram moments that
we can share with friends and all of a

sudden we became so used
to just experiencing so

many things on a moment to moment
basis. And now we're with ourselves,

we're with our thoughts,

we have to contend with our emotions
and our unconscious mind is not

going to like this.
And it's gonna tell us,

you deserve to have all these things
like you deserve to have life the way it

was.

I think it was Helen Keller said something
to the effect of like character can't

be developed in peace and quiet.

It's through suffering that the soul
gets strengthened, that we learn,

we grow and we develop. So, you know,

we can't get back time.

We can only embrace the present moment
and helping employees connect with

the present moment. And the reality
we face on a moment to moment,

day to day basis helps
us cope with change,

and also feel like there's
no getting back what we had.

We can't quit our job and earn time back.

We can only address what's
currently happening.

And then some of the onus of why
employees are feeling unfulfilled at

work is really on the
employers themselves.

Clearly identifying the purpose
that you're creating in people's

life.

Just because we might not feel
like we're contributing to

a higher purpose on a day
to day basis because not

all work is infused with meaning,
but it's the small actions.

The things that we learn from the
trying relationships that we have,

the way we connect with our
teams, the problems that we solve,

all of these small moments
in the workplace help us
connect to a higher purpose.

And if an organization can share
their purpose through their vision,

their values and making sure they're
showing their employees how we

help serve humanity,

cuz every business that's out
there is serving humanity.

Whether they're providing pleasure,
whether they're providing food,

whether they're providing connection,

we're all in the business of serving
humanity and employees need to know that

and make sure that an organization is
living up to some type of core values.

I think definitely where that connection
gets lost between employers and

employees is core values are sort of
on the placard somewhere in the office,

but how do we now activate
those core values?

And those values bring virtue into
people's lives and help them feel like

they're connected to a purpose
bigger than themselves.

So that purpose is really about
creating a unified shared experience

that truly builds a culture
around an organization.

And one employees can really,
you know, glam onto and enjoy.

So you touched on many things that I
can personally relate to over the last

year and a half. You know,

this is now we're recording
this end of calendar year 21.

And a lot of the things that you
mentioned are certainly relatable having

kids around when you're trying to
work on teams calls and even the

idea of commuting again,

I think it's interesting because I
know at least I had a bit of a longer

commute. It was almost an opportunity
at the end of the day to kind of

stop your mind from working
and transition to home on your

way. And you know,

nowadays it's a bit of a challenge cuz
there isn't really that time to break.

You know, it's just one thing to the
next you're living in it at all times.

I'm sure that's just one of
the many. So I'm curious:

you mentioned a lot of reasons for
unfulfillment, but I think, you know,

employees certainly still have an
opportunity to feel fulfilled, you know,

and organizations have an opportunity
to really hone in on those core values.

And I think a lot of businesses, you
know, if they didn't adapt right away,

they certainly have by now.

So what are some of the ongoing challenges
even if they are fulfilled that you

think employees might be facing and
you know, do you have any, you know,

recommendations for
overcoming these challenges?

Yeah, definitely.

I think one of them is the loss
of relationships in the workplace.

You know,

you brought up the commute and all the
moments that were ritualized inside of

their achieving peace of mind.

Now let's go to the workplace
and in the workplace,

we all of these rich opportunistic
moments to connect on a daily basis

with a large group of individuals,

even it's just a smile
and a nod in the morning.

Did you catch the game last night?

The moments before a meeting when there's
a little bit of levity and laughter,

the moments after the meeting,

when you can sort of huddle
with individual of team
members, congratulate them,

talk about next steps.

We had all of these micro moments and
those micro moments have truly become

lost. Even the larger moments, like a
cup of coffee, having lunch together,

something that can't be
replicated through a zoom call.

We're highly social creatures.

We really rely on that entanglement
of our energy to feel each other,

to connect with each other,
to relate with one another.

So I think for employers right now,

it's not about a Zoom happy hour.

It's not about getting a bunch of people
together on something they're already

fatigued on and staring at a screen,

but helping connect people again,

learning about each other's
lifestyle interests, their families,

even sharing stories of things they've
learned about during the pandemic,

finding ways to connect on
a truly emotional level.

And if you think about the
life cycle of a relationship,

the first stage is initiating you
talk about the weather and the sports.

Then you're experimenting,
likes interests, movies,

sports teams then intensifying.

This is when you start to
get an exchange of values,

then finally you become integrating
and you're seeing a purpose.

Each other brings to you on a
personal level and a business level.

And finally you enter the bonding
stage and where retention happens for

employees is when they
bond with one another,

because they like to stay because of
the relationships they have. Right now,

we're circumventing, initiating,
experimenting, intensifying and bonding.

And we're just task oriented.

We're just focused on the
meeting right in front of us,

turned it off onto the next meeting.

So those human connections are gonna be
extremely important for the future of

the workplace. And reinstilling,

getting back to them and finding tools
and mechanisms where we can connect

people with one another again.

Now I'm sure there are plenty of
reasons that these challenges, you know,

have almost augmented, you know,

aside from just the virtual
limitations of relationship

building, I think we talked about
it briefly at the very start.

There are other more or less habits
that we have developed throughout

this pandemic. And it seems like
technology is in front of us 24/7,

whether it's work or not.

So from your experience and
everything we're talking about here,

as far as relationships go,

what impact does technology
and social media have on an

individual's, you know, day to
day, their overall mental health?

Yeah,

well first we have to express extreme
gratitude for having the technology that

we do, because imagine if this
was to happen in the nineties,

we wouldn't be able to
connect with each other.

We were still in the world of
long distance telephone calls.

So it's amazing that we can pick
up a phone and see someone's face,

but we've become so reliant
on it that we are not

necessarily using it as a tool,

but we're choosing to use it as a
reality and we're getting deeper and

deeper into that reality.
And when we use technology,

when we use social media, it
divides our consciousness,

it takes us out of the present moment.

We can be having discussions with
somebody and at the same token,

I'm looking at my screen and I'm seeing
comments from another project I'm

working on. I'm getting
alerts on my phone.

So our productivity starts to diminish
because our consciousness is splintered

in so many ways.

There's been countless studies that
multitasking is a myth done by Harvard

University.

And the list goes on of great institutions
that have studied multitasking.

Yet we still believe that we can
accomplish all of this at once.

So one thing that we just have to make
sure is as we move into the future,

that we use these as a tool,
you know, prior to COVID,

I was probably on in my business
career one or two Zoom calls.

And it was because we were meeting a
new team from a recent acquisition or a

global team for the first time.

And we would never get the chance
to actually see them in person.

But all of our presentations
were just done over the phone.

We didn't have to stare at a grid of
spaces feeling like I'm on Hollywood

squares. You know, everyone's
like face staring at you.

I know that's an old reference
to Hollywood squares,

but it becomes really challenging
for us to deal with that.

Especially for those that are
visual learners, auditory learners,

or kinesthetic learners,
it's putting us in overload.

So as employers look into the future,

it's really finding purpose
in those tools. You know,

are you expected to have Slack
open while you're presenting?

It's probably not a good idea.

It's probably a good idea to let someone
direct their consciousness to their

presentation,

not have a little messages about what
they should or shouldn't be saying popping

up, cuz that should be done in rehearsal.

If you're meeting someone for the first
time, it's great to see their face.

We've just met. It's nice to put a
face to the name, but in the future,

is it required? Probably not.
We can just have a conversation.

Sometimes it's a lot easier just to
be in our own head space and have our

consciousness focused
on the topic at hand,

what we're communicating to each other.

So we just have to use technology
correctly and we need to learn from our

experience in COVID of what's worked and
what's not worked and not just become

super reliant on it because we know
it's splintering our consciousness and

dividing our attention, which is
that decrease in productivity.

Yeah, it's really interesting
because besides the, you know,

personal reliance on technology, I
think a lot of businesses and, you know,

individual teams are really stressing
the different values that technology does

offer even in the workplace.

I know you mentioned Slack briefly and
there are a ton of other applications,

software tools that can
be used. So, you know,

I'll get your perspective if you wanna
share it from the business perspective or

the personal perspective, when does
technology actually help us? You know,

we talked,

it could split our consciousness sometimes
and maybe that takes away from work

and it can hurt us. But
you know, like I said,

I think there are positive
uses of it as well.

So would you care to share
anything on that side of the coin?

Yeah, definitely. I think it's,

when communicating at a distance
connecting for the first time or

having one to one conversations
that really weren't face to face,

we see this in 360 reviews, providing
feedback, coaching mechanisms,

those are extremely
important. When it hurts us,

is when it's used for everything possible,

everything in the
kitchen sink all at once,

really focusing on what is this tool for?

Think about technology as a toolbox,

define the purpose and the role for
each of those tools that you have in

relation to your workforce
needs extremely important.

And I feel like the time it
hurts us the most is when

we rely on it to run our lives.

And this is in work and
in just life, you know,

you don't need to enter what you just
ate into an app to know if it was

healthy. I mean, you know, it's healthy.
You know, if you ate an ice cream,

you're not gonna be able to have
another unhealthy meal for dinner.

We don't need to rely on technology to
do things for us that we consciously

already know those mechanisms
give us dopamine triggers.

All of those alerts give us rushes in our
brain. So every time you get an alert,

an email, a ding, it sending
a reward signal in your brain,

and that's why we're so
addicted to social media.

That's why we're so addicted to technology
is because we're used to it running

our lives.

The fact that we pick up our phone on
average a hundred times a day is a little

bit alarming and that the majority
of us are on social media three and a

half hours a day is pretty alarming.
It's those are very alarming statistics.

That's more addictive than cigarettes.

That's more time on social media than
people spent smoking in the heyday.

So it's something we're in denial about.

It's something we have to be conscious
of and it's something we really need to

work hard and create discipline around
on how we use these tools effectively and

with purpose in order to feel good about
ourselves and create more wellbeing in

our lives and be able to appreciate
the present moments that we're in,

whether it's working with colleagues on
a pitch or presentation or a new client,

or whether we're just connecting
with friends and family.

And, you know,

I love the analogy you shared with
the toolbox because that's what it is.

You know, it's essentially, it's
an asset, it's something of value,

but it has an individual
purpose more or less.

There are very rarely tools that you can
accomplish every job around the house

or something like that with.

So I think that's a great way
to look at technology as well.

We don't need our phone for
every single thing that we do.

We have to take a step back and look
at the human elements of things, right?

And I think that's, you know,
excellent point and really, you know,

paints a good picture for how
these tools should be used.

So we talked a little bit about how
to kind of get around these challenges

and we wanna limit the amount that
we use technology for and such.

I'm just curious if you have any other
solutions and really any other thoughts

that you would like to share as
far as how can individuals find

purpose? How can organizations better
communicate these purposes? You know,

kind of just the whole
conversation we've had so far.

Can you bring it together and share
any last minute thoughts with us?

Yeah, definitely. Organizationally,

think of an organization of one connected

consciousness.

You have a hive of minds
working together to achieve

a vision all with a unique mission.

And what makes them want to go on that
mission is the values that you have.

So holding all of that together should
be your mantra, your belief system,

where you're directing everyone's
consciousness to the greater good,

how you're serving humanity,

what you're doing to make
this world a better place.

Because the organizations that don't do
that in the future will become obsolete

to those that do employees
want to work for a

company for more than a
year and a half, two years,

they don't wanna have a revolving door,

especially the generation that's
entering the workplace right now,

all of the centennials, gen Z,

but they need to learn not just where
the consciousness of an organization

is directed, but how to connect with the
other minds within that organization.

So whether you start instilling
some tried and true methods,

like personality tests,

having people on the team learn
about each other, their likes,

their interests, their passions,
connecting them. Unity is the key.

It's not dividing your
organization. It's unifying them.

And unification is the beginning
of diversity programming.

You can't separate people.

You have to unite them first and
then celebrate their differences.

What each group brings to the table.

I think for organizations,

one of the traps is often
plugging the holes on culture and

organizational wellness
is somewhat of a new term,

but it's become very reliant on
something like a meditation app or an

exercise class, class passes.

And those only plug the holes
of organizational consciousness

and what you really need to focus
as teaching people about themselves,

how to navigate, change, how
to feel good about yourself,

how to accept other people, the thoughts
that are generated from your mind,

where are they coming from?

We need to create programming within
organizations that truly helps

increase the mental health and
self-awareness of an organization to make

that united consciousness shine really
bright and achieve the goals at hand.

And then I think finally, you know,

just making sure for people and
employees that are working for companies,

learn to self-regulate your tech
use uncover areas that you seek

to grow and develop. You have
to set goals for yourself,

share those self-improvement goals
holistically, whether they're talent,

development, goals, career goals,
financial goals, physical goals,

social goals with your boss and show

how you're looking to grow,

what you wanna achieve
and take time truly to

connect with yourself and create a vision
for where you wanna be in the future.

And the more you share
that vision with others,

the more you'll gain internal support
and the more success you'll have growing

within an organization rather
than feeling like you're defeated,

deflated and fighting an uphill battle
just to find peace and joy at work and

work is the place where
we find purpose in life.

That's what's so beautiful about work.
We choose a passion that's right for us,

those passions shift and
evolve and change over time.

But work is the place
that we find purpose.

So it's something truly to
harness the potential of,

and enjoy as we're on
this journey of life.

This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast,

providing you with the latest
perspectives of thought leaders from the

accounting and finance profession.

If you like what you heard and you'd
like to be counted for more relevant

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visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.