Welcome back to Count Me In,

IMA's podcast about all things affecting
the accounting and finance world.

I'm Adam Larson and I first like to
thank you for coming back to hear episode

146 of our series today's
conversation features Patti Humble,

the chief accounting officer at UPS.

Patty is an experienced senior leader
with a broad background in both business

unit and corporate
headquarter environments.

She is also a passionate leader who
truly emphasizes personal development and

the need for knowing yourself first. Next,

you'll hear her discuss
steps to successfully getting
to know yourself and how

that translates to strong leadership.

So keep listening as we head
over to the conversation now.

So I know our conversation for today
is going to be about developing others,

but I understand it's
very important to you.

And I know it's a topic that
you're very passionate about.

So for some background for our listeners,

why don't you start off by telling
us why this is so important to you?

Well, thank you. I appreciate that.

And I'm just going to begin with kind
of an overarching statement that,

you know, what, we all have a
unique purpose in our lives, right?

We all want to make a
difference for our families,

for our workplaces, for
our country, even globally.

And so just pause for a
second and think about that.

How do you make a difference?

Because in my view, effective leaders,

they have to start by
knowing themselves first,

before they can start
paying it forward to others.

So for me, self journey, my
self knowledge and my journey,

that was a linchpin.

And that's when I really started putting
some of my leadership puzzle pieces

together.

And I'm really passionate about this
because I really want to share some of

my aha moments with other people.

I think what I've observed is that
people are often very hesitant

to go deep inside themselves.
It can be intimidating,

it can be a little scary,

but as I look back over
the course of my career,

I found that I really
needed to know myself first.

And only then is when some of
these other leadership traits,

my coping mechanisms, all of
that started to fall into place.

So that's why I'm so passionate about it.

It's very fascinating. And you
know, I'm curious these aha moments,

you know, you said a couple
of times right there,

you have to know yourself first. What
does that actually look like? You know,

and I'm sure it's different for
different people. but what do you,

what does that ultimately look like
to you when you make that recognition?

Well, I think it's
knowing your style, right?

It's what drains you of energy when
you get home at the end of the day and

you're just wiped out what
happened that made that happen

and what gives you energy? I mean,

when you think about those moments
where you're just really jazzed,

what was that?

What gives you energy or maybe
it's where you look up at the

clock and you've totally lost track of
time. I mean, the hours have gone by,

and you just don't even
know where the time went to.

It's knowing that it's
knowing your personality type.

I think we all kind of have a sense of
what our personality types are like,

what are our blind spots? Where,

what are the landmines that we
might step on more than once.

And also it's knowing your
hot buttons, right? We all,

we all know what those are too, but
I think knowing yourself is really,

it's so important because people
succeed differently. So for example,

extroverts and introverts, they
succeed very different in the world.

And you may, or you may not
know where you fit along that

continuum. And when I say introvert,
I don't mean people that are shy.

All right, there's a
misunderstanding about introverts.

Introverts are people that get
their energy differently from

thoughtful and quiet activities,
right? We know our extroverts love to,

to be around people and go to events.
It doesn't mean that you're different,

you're different than in a way
that you succeed differently.

That information can be
really critical to adapting

how you lead and how you
position yourself for

advancement in your workplace.

So there's that piece of it by knowing
yourself and even on a more personal

level,

you have to know yourself
to know how you cope and,

and to conquer sometimes your own
gremlins, whatever those might be. I mean,

think about what happened to us during
COVID right during this pandemic,

our coping mechanisms were really taxed.

They were really strained. And I
think that's a global phenomenon.

So you probably learned some things about
yourself during the pandemic that you

might not have known and some of your
gremlins might've been more pronounced,

but I think when you know yourself,

you're aware of your thoughts, you know,

how you talk to yourself and you
can talk yourself through moments

of fear or uncertainty, you know,

how to speak to yourself in
the third person. So, you know,

you think about the movie that
runs in your head and you know,

you tell yourself, oh my God, I
can't believe I screwed up or I,

how could I have done that?

There is not a third person that would
speak to you the way you speak to

yourself. So try talking to yourself,

like another, someone who loved
you would speak to you, they'd say,

you know what? You tried your best,

you did the best you could
with the information that
you had, or yeah. You know,

I didn't handle that so great.
But you'll do better next time.

If we speak to ourselves that
way you talk to yourself,

instead of listening to yourself,
you try things like being grateful,

when you're stressed out, because you
look to the bright side of things,

it's all that, that movie that,
that plays on in your head.

and I think that's part
of knowing yourself.

It just helps all those coping
mechanisms work really well.

A good friend of mine
recommended me to me once,

to create an "I love Patti"
box and then fill it up

with all the positive affirmations
that you get that you receive.

And then when you're having a
really bad day and you need a boost,

you just go read all those
things all over again

to say, you know what
I do well, I am loved.

And it just helps that, that
inner, that inner voice.

And I think that's really,

really an important part of knowing
yourself because knowing your style,

knowing your energy,

knowing how you speak to yourself
is the platform for leadership.

I think that's all amazing advice. And
as you were sharing this information,

I started thinking, you know,

we kicked things off talking
about or setting the stage,

really developing others. And it starts
with you first. And as you're speaking,

I kind of said, you know,

developing others that other person
can still be yourself. You know, it's,

it's, you know, it's the
other person that, you know,

people see that maybe you don't always
see. So, it's really interesting.

And as you, I can understand the
more you learn about yourself,

the easier it is,

as you just said to then
eventually develop other
people other than yourself and

lead. And it's just all full circle.

So you'd already just mentioned a few
really great techniques, but I'm sure,

you know, you're very
passionate about this.

You have other things that we could
share with the listeners, you know,

specific steps, anything that, again,

how do you identify when you are
successful in knowing yourself,

you know, what, how, how can our
listeners take this another step further?

Yeah. well,

there is a wealth of information out
there on the internet about personality

types. I mean, if you, if you
put that into a search engine,

you're going to come up with a
lot of, of, material. I think,

you know, people can start with
something like a Myers-Briggs assessment.

There's a number of things that you can
do that are on the internet that are,

that are free, but that's
only the beginning.

So like for Myers-Briggs you get
come back and it's a four letter,

kind of acronym that you get,
but then the hard work starts.

You have to read about your personality
type. You have to learn about you,

it's doing the homework. I mean,

treat it like a treasure hunt. I mean,

why do you react and
behave the way you do? I,

when I started digging into that
and go, oh my gosh, this is, so me,

how could I not have known
that this is how I'm wired?

And this is the way I behave.
And it totally made sense.

And I think once you see yourself
in that light and you know,

that there's other people
kind of like you, it becomes,

it leads to a sense of self-acceptance.

And I think we all can struggle
with that, at, at times,

and because I'm an accountant,
I actually made a small binder.

I called it the Patti playbook.

I think I kinda kind of
figure as I went through the,

the Myers-Briggs material
and I did all of my homework,

but it really was eye opening and
it was especially eye opening when

I shared it with my
family, I said, you know,

when this thing happens and I behave
a certain way. Yeah, that's, that's,

that's how I'm wired. And
they're like, oh, it was really,

it was really, really eye
opening for them as well.

And they understood what's
kind of hardwired, into us.

it going beyond that some companies,

will support the cost of what's
called a Hogan assessment,

which is a little deeper
than something like a,

a Myers-Brigg and companies can
actually put that into maybe

your individual development
plan. So my only advice on that,

is make sure that when you
get your Hogan results back,

you need to have an expert
read that back to you.

Somebody that's familiar with how a Hogan,

what a Hogan is measuring and
what your results mean. So,

and the reason I say that
is, unfortunately for me,

I spent about three years with a
misunderstanding about my Hogan assessment

and that misunderstanding actually sent
me backwards a little bit. So just,

just make sure that if you're going
to have an assessment like that,

that you really are getting
expert advice on the,

on the results.

There's other taxonomies out there in
this arena. There's one of them that puts,

leaders into what they call
the four faces. So you can,

you can be a catalyst, a strategist,

a steward, or an operator.
Now, most accountants like us,

we tend to be stewards and
operators, because again,

that's kind of how we're hardwired and
that's why we went into the profession in

the first place. But I will say,

I think we all know that
in a post pandemic world,

our organizations more and more
are going to be looking for us to

be catalysts, change
makers and strategists.

So it's great to be a
steward and an operator,

but knowing where you fit on that,

that fourplex helps you
understand where it is you need to

grow. I mean, ask your family. I
mentioned that before, when, you know,

I did the, my Myers-Briggs, I mean, they
know you, they know your personality,

they know how your energy ebbs
and flows look for patterns on

how you interact with them.

Those are clues, right? And
in every, in every family,

people kind of play parts, it's kind
of like a little play, but, you know,

are the people that are closest to us.

They know our strengths and our
weaknesses and our hot buttons.

So also treat that like a
little bit of a treasure hunt,

ask your family members about
you and getting to know yourself.

Next you can turn to the
workplace. So what is,

what's the word about you at work?
What's your buzz? Both from your boss,

from the folks at work,
from you, from your peers,

and if you don't know what that is,

I would recommend that you need to find
out. and don't just ask for feedback,

just general feedback from
them. I mean, you ask,

once you're learning about
yourself, ask some really,

really specific questions. and
let me just give you an example.

So a question, a specific
question might be,

what's the one key thing
that I could change in order

to become more approachable.

If that's something you're working
on or another question might be,

what do you know that I
will never get to know,

but I really need to know that that
one was really open-ended question that

you could ask some of your
coworkers or your boss,

and that really elicits a lot
of, of openness from people.

And I guess the last thing on this
topic, I would say just, you know,

getting to know yourself and
your steps along the way is,

remember when you're done with
this, your greatest strength. Well,

that's also your greatest weakness,
right? So for example, accountants,

we love certainty. We love detail.

We love the fact that there's
just one answer. That's our craft.

That's what we do.

But I think we also know that we need
to learn to live in lots of shades

of gray, rather than the black and white,

organizations are asking
us to see the big picture,

get up to 50,000 feet, be
able to speak, you know, in,

non-accounting ways to other
folks in our organization.

And also remember your strength is your
weakness. For example, going back to,

if you're an introvert,
how awesome is that?

That's a strength where you're going to
pick up on clues that other people might

miss. And you're going to balance out
your team with diversity of thought,

but also know that you have to
modulate. You have to be an extrovert.

Sometimes you need to turn it on
when you need to not, not 24/7,

not all the time, not asking
you to change who you are,

but we also know that
in corporate America,

you need to be able to
modulate back and forth.

And when you can be honest with
yourself along this journey,

that is when you will really
know that you're growing.

And I love how you continue to bring this
back to accounting, because, you know,

particularly here, obviously with IMA,

we're really focused on the
evolution of the profession, right?

The future of the profession and
upscaling, and you mentioned a lot about,

you know,

being able to tell the whole story to
those non-finance people and a big word

around IMA that we use
is being adaptive. Right.

And being able to take that next step,
particularly the last year and a half,

you know, how everybody
was forced to adapt,

but our real leadership strength there.
So I want to keep our conversation here,

going in that direction, you know,
turning to adaptable leadership.

What are some of the things that you've
experienced and what is this dynamic

really look like?

How does knowing yourself and becoming
adaptable tie in with leadership

and, you know, just bring it full
circle for this conversation.

Yeah, well,

I think people are like puzzles
and most accountants really

love problem solving. We
probably like puzzles.

So understanding people
and leading people is,

is rather the same because there's no
two puzzles that are alike. And I mean,

if you look at online again about
books that are written on leadership or

adaptable leadership, I mean,
there are oceans of books. It's,

it's actually really confusing,
you know, on what you know,

which is why I want you to go deep first.

I want you to understand yourself
first so that you can understand

who you are and what
you bring to leadership.

And I think that also informs you,

that you have to find
your way in leading you

won't lead like your boss,

you will lead like you
because you are unique,

your blending,

the best of the people that you've
worked with and worked around and you've

absorbed all of that.

And you're customizing it along
with your personality and adapting

all of that into this,
this puzzle. That's you.

And I will say that I personally,

I spent too much time trying
to be a clone for one of

my bosses thinking that that
was the only way to lead,

but you know what? I wasn't
cut out of that same cloth.

I wasn't raised to the same
way in my family of origin.

I didn't have the same work experiences.

So I wasted a lot of time
thinking that I had to be them

when I should have been again,

investing more in me and
adaptable leadership comes back to

modulating. So remember when we talked
about that in the last section, right?

Modulating, introvert, or extrovert,
or, you know, kind of knowing yourself,

managing yourself, this
is the exact same thing,

leaders modulate to get
the most out of every

person's different strengths they're
putting together their puzzle,

right. And their uniqueness.

So when you're adjusting your
style to what everybody needs,

what each person needs is called
situational leadership, right?

It's this modulating, it's
that adjusting. and it's tough.

I think for accountants, again,
they kind of want a single answer.

When you learn how to
manage a group of people,

you want to be able to take that cookie
cutter and move to a new group and say,

okay, I know how to manage
now, but you don't. Right?

Because when you move,

it's a whole different set of puzzles
and a whole different group of people.

But that's another place where we really
have to live in the gray and we have to

experiment right. The first time
that you work about around someone,

that's just argumentative. You know,

you learn how to deal with
an argumentative person
it's called situational

leadership. And then you're going to
take that learning and adapt again.

And you, now, you're, now you're
going to know how to, how to do that.

I think also adaptable leadership is
how you build out your group, right?

When you are comfortable in your
own skin and you know yourself,

and you look around your team and you
can see those strengths and weaknesses in

your team,

you also know that you have to build a
diverse group of thinkers because you

don't want people around you that
just agree with you or look like you,

or act like you, or think like you, which
is really our human tendency, right?

We like being around people
that are similar to us that
are kind of in our tribe

or the way we think.

But when we welcome dissenting
opinions is when we really get

the best out of being an adaptable leader.

And it's really fascinating to ask
people that are different from you.

This question, what would
you do if you were me,

because you're going to get
a really different answer.

But that diversity of thought from
being an adaptable leader and welcoming

those dissenting opinions are
going to be really informative.

And you'll be better because of the
diverse group of thinkers that you brought

together. But again, that's got to
come back to do you know yourself,

and have you looked at that situational
leadership and your team to know

how your,

how your group needs to be rounded out
with all of those skills and talents and

opinions.

And let's keep going on that
topic for just a moment here,

you were talking about kind
of building out your team.

And I think one of the
best representations of a
good leader is, you know,

their tree, right? The people that
they develop and, and who's next,

essentially. So when we are talking
about our team and developing others,

how should young leaders think about
developing their own strengths? And,

you know, obviously
knowing yourself first,

I think has to be first and foremost
in communicating that to them.

But as a leader, communicating
to future leaders,

what's the thought process, you know,

how do we go about instilling
this mindset with them?

Yeah. I think one of the things they
have to understand early, or, you know,

young leaders is that, you know, your
career is not a ladder, it's a jungle gym.

It's going to be lots of jumping around.

Early in a career I really
ask young, young people,

young leaders to focus really on
their self-development first, right?

Your path to success in general
is always going to include

being hardworking,
reliable, results-oriented,

trustworthy, and in our profession,

extremely ethical.

All of those things are what you
have to build out in the first

stages of your career. I also tell
people to take notes. I mean, I mean,

literally take notes,
observe leaders around you.

What is it that you want to
emulate? What do you like,

what do you think you can do
when the way your built your

personality? Who do you want to be like?

And then also kind of
who do you want to avoid?

We all have those people that we work
with for, or around where we go, oh,

I'm never going to do
that. But, but know that,

I mean really study other leaders,

make yourself a little cheat-sheet.

It's actually fascinating if you do this
over a period of years to go back and

look at some of your early
notes of what you were learning,

because now you've absorbed
them and they're really,

they kind of become part of you.

So I think your early career really
has to focus around self-development.

And then how about later in the
career, you know, your, mid stage,

late stages of your career, and
again, we're talking about leadership,

how does your mindset and your
approach to this mindset vary?

Yeah. So by mid career, we hope
that all of us have kind of,

had that subject matter expertise. That's
that's largely been mastered, right?

You've got that in your
rear view mirror. You've

mastered your craft.

Your roles that you're taking on in your
mid career are now demanding kind of

more ownership, more responsibility,
and certainly more leadership.

This is where you're transitioning
from being a subject matter expert

or IQ,

more towards EQ or emotional knowledge.

And that's also where your hard work,

and investment from knowing
yourself is really going to start

to accelerate your
effectiveness. This is where,

where it really starts to gel.

There's a good book for mid career
that I liked. It was called,

"What Got You Here Won't Get You
There". It's by Marshall Goldsmith,

I found that one particularly helpful
just to kind of sometimes get you out of

the little, the little
rut, that, that you're in.

The other thing kind of shifts
in mid or late career about

leadership is also the
leaders that you have.

And let me explain what I mean by that.

So you need to make sure that
you've got sponsors. Now,

sponsors are different from
mentors and coaches. What do I,

what do I mean by that? So coach
just like in sports or other things,

they show you how mentors can give you

advice, but sponsors,

those are the folks that speak up
for you when it's time for decision.

Those are the folks that are
powerful enough to be in the room

when decisions are being made about you,

about you and your development
and your assignment.

So I think that's it. It's not
specifically your leadership,

but it's something you need to be very
mindful of about leadership in general is

just to make sure that
you've got sponsors.

And I think the other thing that's super

important in this mid-career is asking.

If you don't ask you don't get,

I have a quote that's actually
taped on the bottom part of

my monitor by my computer. And it says,

if you don't go after what you
want, you'll never have it.

If you don't ask the
answer will always be no.

And if you don't step forward, you're
always going to be in the same place.

So it's just a really good reminder.

That's super important in
that mid-career ask and ask

and ask. In mature career, I'll
call it mature career, right?

comes the ability really to influence
that's where you start to really

affect change. And when we get to
this part of the leadership journey,

I think that, you know,
the leadership traits here,

also include really being able
to communicate with nonfinancial

executives in your business.

It's the part of your career where you're
really taking risks outside of your

comfort area. If you've always
been in an accounting vertical,

maybe you're taking a leap over
into a business unit or planning

or marketing or something like that.

It's getting comfortable
with being uncomfortable.

That stage is where you really kind of
learn to respect the culture of politics

doesn't mean that you have
to necessarily adopt it,

but you have to respect
the culture politics.

You have to get comfortable in
your leadership role to know enough

to not to miss out on anything important,
but you don't need to know it all.

And I think for accountants,

that's really hard because we
really love knowing all the rules.

We really love the detail and
separating yourself from that and

being okay with knowing just
enough is kind of a difficult

transition in that part of your
career here also in this time,

you're spending more and more
time developing your people.

And so all these things we've
talked about, about your leadership,

knowing yourself, taking risks,

asking this is where it
all comes to a crescendo,

because this is where you're
developing your people.

You're asking lots of questions rather
than you're asking more than you're

telling and you're really
see being able to focus on

developing all, all of that
learning in into your people.

Well, Patty, this has been
incredibly insightful.

I've honestly really enjoyed this
whole conversation and I just,

am very appreciative of
everything you shared.

And I want to give you an opportunity
if there are any final thoughts that you

have on this topic that you would
like to kind of wrap up with.

Yeah. So just you're right. Just
kind of wrap this all together.

So the journey of a leader, I
think has several key skills.

As I think about it. First,

we talked about invest in
your own learning and I
mean your intellect and your

personality, that's the
investment you make in yourself.

It's hiring those exceptional leaders
for your team, that diversity of thought,

and really developing those,
those self-reliant teams.

It's getting out of the details and
not micro-managing as hard as that

might be. We talked about
communicating, right?

You got to communicate in all
directions up, down and sideways.

And I think lastly, one of
my favorites is Bernay Brown.

She has a pretty famous, Ted talk. It's
about vulnerability and authenticity.

It's admitting when you're wrong,

it's being human and it's being humble.

I think every one of us has
such great potential to make

a difference. So I have
another small reminder.

That's taped my computer
monitor that reminds me,

and it says be who you are meant to
be, and you will set the world on fire.

So thank you very much
for your time today.

I hope that some of these
thoughts have been helpful.

This has been Count Me In,

IMA's podcast providing you
with the latest perspectives
of thought leaders from

the accounting and finance profession.
If you like what you heard,

and you'd like to be counted in for
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education,

visit IMA's website at www.imanet.org.